botanycameos In reply to RachbakN [2015-03-15 03:38:35 +0000 UTC]

Oh, Marla and Prime Khan being the parents of Khan is a nice twist.

With time travel it could somehow be done even without the AU settings...

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RachbakN In reply to botanycameos [2015-03-15 03:43:40 +0000 UTC]

Yes! 

Double yes!!! Oh the wonders of Star Trek....

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botanycameos In reply to enterprisegurl1701 [2015-03-15 03:37:31 +0000 UTC]

Sure!
If you don't mind my reply possibly being terribly late due to how often I spend months not remembering to log in to DA.

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enterprisegurl1701 In reply to botanycameos [2015-03-16 19:07:27 +0000 UTC]

It's fine. I'm thinking of doing a review of Greg Cox's "The Eugenics Wars" and "To Rule in Hell: The Rise and Fall of Khan Noonien Singh" on dA and I need your opinion.
My questions are: How do you, in your opinion, see Khan ( TOS, TWoK (both movie and novelization), and Into Darkness(both movie and novelization)) as who he is?
What do you think about the Eugenics Wars Khan had to face?
And what do you think of the Augments if genetic engineering people was real and what will happen if something went wrong? 

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botanycameos In reply to enterprisegurl1701 [2015-03-23 21:02:27 +0000 UTC]

Hi again, and sorry for a late (albeit less late than the previous XD;; ) reply.
(And the inevitable wall of text that always follows whenever someone gets me to talk about Khan. *-*)

I did enjoy those books quite a bit, but I found that at times Khan was out of character. (It's been a while since I read, so it's hard to remember every instance, but for a quick and simple example, in scenes like the one where he [SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER] was willing to let Seven kill Joaquin. As if Khan ever would.)

Also, are you doing the third book too? ("To Reign in Hell")
Bits of it are great but some is very "What??? No." XD; Especially earlier on in the book. (Among others, scenes like [SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER] Marla and the augment woman falling in the river, and Marla somehow is the one who manages to retain her grip on a weapon while the augment fails to, Marla more or less saves her etc... No way. Not with the strength/resistance/etc. difference etc. between them.

Personally, I think [SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER] the whole mess in the first two books is to be blamed on Seven for his craptastic handling of the whole situation. Yeah, abandon a four years old to be a foster child, leave him with no support or guidance of anyone who can understand him and his needs well or know what he lived through, and just blame everything on him when he turns out not 100% as you wanted him to after you lied to him his whole life. And then, surprise, he doesn't follow in your footsteps, still tries to save the world in whatever way he can think of ("we offered them ORDER!" because it makes sense for someone who was a child adrift in the scary world mostly by himself so much, to think order means safety and will solve the problems. Even though things went down an increasingly slippery slope by the end of the book, it all started out from Khan wanting to save the world, in a way that he hoped would be better than Seven's. After he saw Seven let his people die, no less...
Btw, his turn to villainy in the end I found very hard to believe considering his (much more believable) personality earlier on in the book. Even with all the disappointment he must have felt as people turned on him etc.) The only redeeming thing Seven did was offer the Botany Bay rather than kill Khan.
Horrible as that might have been too, if Seven wanted to mold Khan into his ideas, he should have raised the child himself, rather than abandoning him then being displeased he isn't exactly as he wanted.

Anyway, I find the Cox trilogy very enjoyable despite the bits I take issue with. (One of the biggest issues imho, being [SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER] the idea of having the Eugenics Wars be some underground thing that no one but those involved in it knew about. It was clearly described in canon (TOS) as a huge world-scale war with major bombing, entire populations being wiped from existence (ironically, the augments being one of these, from what we can gather from the end of the war and of their escape, where they were willing to face 10.000 to 1 odds of survival by attempting to leave the solar system --info from TOS-- with a ship that wasn't made for that kind of thing, because the alternative of being caught and what would happen was so horrible...) and so on.
There's NO WAY it could have been some secret thing. I understand that the author did it because he wanted to weave it within the real events of our world, but imho when it comes to 'Trek history' it's best to simply treat it as an alternate universe of our world, rather than try and alter canon events to fit within real world history. It would have been far more epic if done as a full scale war like it was described in canon.)

Another thing, I think it would also have been far more enjoyable if it was almost all told from Khan's pov or at least following him closely. I'm sure I'm not alone in finding Roberta one of the most annoying characters in Trek history, and Seven is a second rate James Bond from Space (somewhat from Space since his ancestors are from Earth).
All the epic things they mention Khan doing behind the scenes in the book ([SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER]such as popping up on every battlefield and trying to help the various revolutions etc. throughout the world, like when he was erroneously reported killed at the Tiananmen massacre etc.) would have been considerably more interesting to read about than Roberta wandering around trying to sneak into augment places. Much of the first book being told mostly from her pov would have been ok because Khan was fours years old (I LOVE the scene where he hides bits of food in his pockets to take to kitty Isis! XD <3 ), but beyond that it would have been much more interesting to see it mostly from his pov. The moments that did follow him more closely were by far the most interesting ones of the entire trilogy, even at the times when he was ooc. But it always felt like there wasn't enough and it didn't delve deep enough.


Basically, the trilogy is a very enjoyable read if we overlook the moments that don't quite work.

That tends to be the case of a lot of the novels and comics for Trek. (And why it's such a good thing that none of the Trek novels or comics are canon, only the series and the movies are.

Btw, the Khan comic is the same: very enjoyable, especially the Eugenics Wars part, but every so often it forgets about canon and verges into "???" territory. (Such as [SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER] the children being grown up in the street already and not being created for the project as canon clearly states they were, or Khan digging through solid rock with his bare hands and the rock just magically disappears --where is all the dust/debris, even if it was physically possible for him to do it, which it shouldn't be???-- and things in the later volumes which contradict what we've seen in the movie, and so on.)
Btw, I found the "To Reign in Hell" comic even more enjoyable than the novel by the same title, although I do love so much the whole part in the novel with [SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER]Khan angsting more and more, which was very poignant. ;-; *feels* It should have ended with him instead of having that totally pointless thing with the younger augments catching Kirk etc.)


Sorry I waffle endlessly. D:


As for what I think of Khan, in general, I've written thousands of words of meta about him (lots about STID since it's more recent, but also plenty about TWOK and Space Seed, since he was in a VERY different mental place in each of those instances), on my blog.
(My meta tag: botanycameos.tumblr.com/tagged…
Space Seed meta on Khan's motivations in particular: botanycameos.tumblr.com/post/7… )

I think he is an antagonist, not a villain, and that he is basically a hero who lost his path and is wandering in the dark. He needs to be guided back to the light rather than treated like a rabbid dog as he usually is.

He does terrible things, yes, but it's because he is cornered and mostly has no other options (in STID, truly so; in Space Seed, because he thought so, although he did considerably less bad things then.
TWOK is a whole other can of worms because he lost his mind after 15 years in hell and the loss of his beloved wife. So he really wasn't in a place to be making correct decisions, which is why he makes colossal mistakes that a man this good at strategy etc. wouldn't ever make if he was sane. Ideally, Joachim and the others should have seized control and fled with him and the torpedo, to go create the ideal planet they most likely had stolen that torpedo to make --if it wasn't for that that they stole the torpedo, they'd have fired it at Kirk already--... But with a man like Khan, overthrowing him even for his own good was inevitably going to end badly, so it was a crappy situation no matter what. The only way out of it would have been if after Space Seed, Kirk had checked on Ceti Alpha V and them every so often instead of leaving them there helpless. I adore Kirk but he did drop the ball hard with Khan.)

The Eugenics wars was a crap situation, there's never a nice and harmless way out of such a massive scale conflict in the whole world. But the important thing to remember is, Khan was the one great exception. The other augment rulers committed genocide etc., while Khan was the only one who didn't do any massacres. He only fought defensive wars, as per TOS.
That's an amazing thing, considering everything that was going on around them. Even with all the restrictions etc. in place in their land (which must have been in a --failed or not-- attempt to avoid things going as badly there as they were going elsewhere), he was remembered by history as the most benevolent of the augment rulers, even though history was written by the humans who defeated and eradicated the augments. The people who usually try their best to throw dirt on the name of those they defeated.
That says quite something, especially considering how large his territory was.

It's also why I find it so sad when fans sometimes assume he is evil incarnate, either because they watched TOS without paying attention to all the little tidbits that are said about the past etc., or because they watched the STID scene where Spock accuses him of things Khan never did in order to stall for time (the whole accusation of Khan wanting to wipe out humanity, which Khan didn't even dignify with an answer) and just assumed it's true instead of seeing Spock is stalling so that McCoy has time to ready the torpedoes.

I've loved this character for years and years, especially because he is so fascinating, with all the potential for good he has in him and all the tragedy of fate always shoving him towards some path where bad things end up happening instead.

I sincerely believe that if he was finally given a chance for peace, without a threat over his people etc., he would choose peace.
As he already did in canon anyway, since back when he was ruler of his land, there was only peace, up until they were attacked and had to fight back. So if the chance happened again (in a planet that won't go to hell like Ceti Alpha V), I'm sure it would be the case again.


As for the potential for real world genetic engineering and its dangers... The main ethical issue I'd be most wary of with the technology itself is the fact that this is inevitably something that will be available only to the people with most money, due to the costs, so it won't be open to everyone to improve their genetic legacy and to fix any potential issues their genes might have.

But other than that, I have nothing against genetic engineering, provided it's done consensually and humanely (which was not the case of the eugenics project in Trek, they were selectively bred and genetically engineered, which implies they were born slaves, since no free people allow scientists to decide to who be bred with!)

Bashir's parents using genetic modification to cure him, for example, didn't harm anyone.

The other big danger is also that while genetic engineering to better ourselves is a lovely concept in theory, it can sadly often be misused by people wanting to use it for nefarious eugenics purposes, and there's that slippery slope of governments mixing in, and of extremists wanting to prevent the people they view as inferior from passing on their genes etc.

That danger is inherent to humanity, it has been around since always, long before there was genetic engineering. I don't think genetic engineering is to blame. Humans have always done or tried to do horrible things like that. To prevent them, one must keep an eye on the ethical side of things. But hindering the development of science, genetic or otherwise, is not the way to go. Genetic engineering, when done ethically, is not the thing at fault. Humanity misusing it, wanting to use it for unethical purposes is the danger, not the science itself.


And lastly, I think the concept of "something going bad" which always goes hand in hand with so many technological advances (A.I. development and so on also always re-awakens such fears in people, and it might actually have more of a logic to it than the fear associated with genetic engineering) pertains highly to the domain of fiction and is born of humanity's instinctive fear of the other, any "other", all the more so when said 'other' is stronger or smarter than them.

In the real world, I believe that what makes a person choose a "bad" or a "good" path throughout their life, is for a large part nurture, how they are raised, the environment around them, the values they are given etc.
If they are raised being constantly distrusted and othered by the people around them, chances are they won't be really happy with the people who treated them that way. (Said people will in turn go and say "see, we were right to distrust them!" if/when the augments lash out at them in return... it's a vicious cycle.)

In Trek, there's a recurrent theme of augments being "bad" because they're "better" than the rest of mankind. The whole "superior ability breeds superior ambition" etc. BS excuse the eugenics scientists hid behind.

The fact that that's treated as a serious thing/an accurate assessment in much of Trek is absolutely horrifying, and imho, revealing of the lack of self-awareness people often display when writing about such concepts. If the augments really are "dangerous", "bad" and "can't be trusted" because they are stronger and smarter than humans, then once humanity is done wiping them all out in the war, attempting to blow up babies in stasis (*cough* Cold Station 12 *cough*) and generally freezing augments into endless stasis --a fate TOS!Kirk described as being "worse than death" in a different episode with a similar theme, by the way-- what are humans supposed to do next? Try to wipe out the Vulcans? They too are smarter and stronger. What about the countless other species in Trek that are "better" too? That's a very slippery slope.
 
I keep hoping that one day there will be a Trek story that addresses the immense hypocrisy mankind within the Trek history has displayed whenever handling the augment issue, and the fact that the general assumption that augments are dangerous because they are better is nothing more than racism, and no different from what it would be if mankind was all hostile to Vulcans or any other species that is either stronger or smarter than humans.

I'd love to watch or read a Trek episode or series exploring that concept.
It could also serve as another general metaphor against the issue of humanity's fear of everything and everyone who is "different" from them even just with skin color or slightly different culture etc., and which results in racism throughout the world.


In the case of Khan and his people, considering everything from the selective breeding + genetic engineering etc., to the inevitable need to break free from their creators which must have happened at some point, and then the wars and everything (and all they got being lost again later on), it's truly amazing he turned out to be a benevolent ruler rather than something very different.
And considering how the other augment leaders and their followers turned out (the ones doing the massacres of normal humans etc.), it's all the more remarkable that Khan was so different.


This became such a wall of text...

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enterprisegurl1701 In reply to botanycameos [2015-03-28 19:10:32 +0000 UTC]

WOW!
Also, yes, I think I will do book 3, and this is not a wall of text, I think. I wanted your opinion about the three questions. Also, thank you so much for your answers.

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botanycameos In reply to mj-magic [2015-03-15 03:04:07 +0000 UTC]

You're welcome! (Sorry for the super late reply! I haven't logged in here since forever. )

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mj-magic In reply to botanycameos [2015-03-15 16:26:32 +0000 UTC]

no worries!

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botanycameos In reply to RachbakN [2014-10-10 05:00:26 +0000 UTC]

Thank you!
The more people draw Khan, the better the world is.

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RachbakN In reply to botanycameos [2014-10-10 16:32:56 +0000 UTC]

 You're welcome!

 So true.

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botanycameos In reply to TheGeniusAmadeus [2014-10-10 05:01:40 +0000 UTC]

Thank you so much! I'm happy you enjoy my art!

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botanycameos In reply to BlackHatsnsd [2014-10-10 05:01:37 +0000 UTC]

Thank you so much! I'm happy you enjoy my art!

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BlackHatsnsd In reply to botanycameos [2014-10-16 03:17:17 +0000 UTC]

^_^

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botanycameos In reply to RachbakN [2014-10-10 05:01:22 +0000 UTC]

Yep! (Super late reply, argh. Sorry! Haven't been on DA lately.)

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RachbakN In reply to botanycameos [2014-10-10 16:34:43 +0000 UTC]

(It's ok. I'll give you many fanarts as you want.)

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botanycameos In reply to FoxFireKiki [2014-10-10 05:02:00 +0000 UTC]

Thank you so much! I'm happy you enjoy my art!

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FoxFireKiki In reply to botanycameos [2014-10-11 21:16:55 +0000 UTC]

no problem just keep up the good work! ^^ love it all!

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botanycameos In reply to mardigrasprincess [2013-10-29 10:16:56 +0000 UTC]

Aw, thank you so much for the kind sentiment, and for enjoying my art here and on the other sites! ^^<3
Sorry that I don't do the chain stuff, but I wish you all the best! ^^

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botanycameos In reply to Maria-Loves-You [2013-10-29 10:08:40 +0000 UTC]

Aww, thank you!! <333 *is so happy*<3
Are you under the same name on tumblr?

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Maria-Loves-You In reply to botanycameos [2013-10-29 11:21:26 +0000 UTC]

Your welcome! :3

Well, my name, yes. But for my username, I just changed it.

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botanycameos In reply to Yumemitsuki [2013-10-17 20:04:09 +0000 UTC]

You're welcome~! Your art is so lovely!

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botanycameos In reply to Eeddey [2013-10-14 02:48:18 +0000 UTC]

You're welcome! ^^

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