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btwboo In reply to Badgaldinger [2018-08-14 00:57:24 +0000 UTC]

This isn't so much reflecting the achievements of these characters so much as the highest achievements their respective countries have made through the ages.

The Macedonian (Alexander's) Empire is the greatest achievement Macedonia's ever made. Same for the Babylonians, and for the British Empire.

So, yeah, Saber's country ultimately conquered the most, so suck on that, King of "Heroes" and King of "Conquerors".

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btwboo In reply to metalshadowinsanity [2018-08-14 00:51:13 +0000 UTC]

Guilt knows no sense but it's own.

When things go awry and end in death, any leader (who has a conscience) will think to themselves "what did I do wrong?".

Artoria gave everything to rule England to the best of her abilities at the expense of any chance of personal happiness, and she had to watch as the people she trusted betrayed her and her kingdom was torn apart by war. Her subsequent guilt and self-loathing, illogical as it is, leads her to believe that her rule as king was a huge mistake. She may have made some small mistakes that contributed to Camelot's demise, but she (misguidedly) feels that undoing her rule as king would erase any suffering that occurred at the end of her rule and none of her subjects would ever have to make sacrifices in the first place. It's stupid, but it's understandable and still well-meaning.

Iskander and Gilgamesh, on the other hand, are arrogant fuck-munchers who only sought to conquer whatever they damn well pleased at the expense of innocent lives and show no remorse for their innumerable sins, only wishing to pick up where they left off. These "Kings" can take their opinions and shove it up their asses so far up it'll exit back through their mouths.

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BrotherCoa In reply to metalshadowinsanity [2016-12-05 08:03:33 +0000 UTC]

"And how is not being willing to sacrifice all of your happiness and life for the good of others "selfish?" Is the desire to enjoy life to the fullest a sin? "

Look at it like this:

Imagine if Nikola Tesla or Einstein refused to commit themselves to science and presume their more selfish desires? Nikola Tesla finding a job and getting married and Einstein finding a decent job as school teacher somewhere in Europe or US. Imagine if Jesus decided to be more selfish and decided to be a farmer instead of trying to help others. If Napoleon decided to retire after revolution and not try to shape Europe for the better. If Joan D'Arc decided to be an ordinary farm-girl and not lead her people into war for freedom agaisnt English. Imagine if nobody donated blood because they selfishly think it belongs only yo them and it should not be shared with anyone. Imagine if all US soldiers in WW2 decided to not enter the war and live peacfully and their lives ot the fullest, not carryig what happens to Europe or Asia as long as they are happy. And so on...

The desire to enjoy the life to the fullest is a choice - a sinful choice. Selfishness leads to Gluttony, Greed, Envy and Pride ( especially true for Gilgamesh and Iskander ). It is sinful because we live in a SOCIETY of people, and how we act shape it aroudn us. If we choose to be selfish we are turning the world into worse place than it is, build only by interest and greed as selfish people want things for themselves and eventually that leads to even wanting more things for themselves.

In my eyes selfish men ( like Iskander, although I like him a lot in FZ ) are the lowest scum of human society as they only care for themselves and not collective as a whole. The people I mentioned above shows how difference between choosing to be selfish and lead a peaceful and fullest life and choosing to sacrifice that for the good of others can shape the world into a better place for everyone. We are given a choice today to enjoy life to the fullest only because of sacrifice of all of those who came beofre us. So it is our duty, as a respect to them, to enjoy life but also to sacrifice ourselves in the same manner to ensure that their legacy remains and to create better future for our children as well. That is why selfish people are rarely remembered while martyrs are glorified, because it is their sacrifice 

So no... enjoying your life to the fullest is a sin. Life should be a mix between enjoying and fulfilling your duty toward your race, your state, your community and your family. 

I don't know if a word of dutiful men that committed his life toward others will reach you, but that's how I see things. 

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metalshadowinsanity In reply to BrotherCoa [2016-12-06 01:08:39 +0000 UTC]

Well, You're not wrong. To covet and live solely for your own gain is indeed a sin. To indulge in debauchery and take whatever you please is indeed reprehensible. HOWEVER, to enjoy what is within your grasp, and live your life to the fullest you can, is just a part of living your life. Is it a sin to share a table with your friends and make merry together? Is it a sin to want to travel to new places and experience new things? I just want to live a life I can enjoy and die satisfied and without regrets. I don't want to be a Martyr or a Hero. I don't have that kind of strength. But I've accepted that, and have decided to live my life as best I can. Is that really such a bad thing? I don't know if the words of an unexceptional man who strives for a life he does not regret have any merit to them, but I'd like to think they do. 

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BrotherCoa In reply to metalshadowinsanity [2016-12-06 22:21:08 +0000 UTC]

"The blood of martyrs is the seed of Mankind."

"Even a men who has nothing can still offer his life."

"Hard work equals salvation."

"True happiness seems only from duty."

These are just some of the principles for which I live my life. I will respect other people's opinions but I will not stand for critics of those who cannot comprehend people's sacrifice because of their own selfish nature ( just like Iskander did to Arthuria in Fate/Zero ).

It is your choice to live as you wish, if you do not want to be Hero or Martyr than that is fine - just do not attack others for doing so just because you think your way of life is better in your opinion than theirs.  

Goodbye and have a wonderful life.

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BrotherCoa In reply to gammadude87 [2015-07-06 15:54:45 +0000 UTC]

I know right, but the question them must rise - why didn't he explained that to her like Shirou had in fate?
Why didn't nobody else bothered with that?

But to be honest, her actually getting her wish is not bad thing at all since by doing that she created Gode Geass universe xD
 
And that still doesn't makes him right to say that person is in wrong for sacrificing her happiness for the sake of others. Especially coming from a selfish men who wanted all in life just for himself. 

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metalshadowinsanity In reply to BrotherCoa [2016-12-04 23:58:16 +0000 UTC]

And everyone knows that eh Code Geass universe is paradise. Its not like its run by a bunch of megalomaniacal assholes who treat anyone who isn't them like trash and-OH WAIT. 

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BrotherCoa In reply to metalshadowinsanity [2016-12-05 08:04:25 +0000 UTC]

We shall see in season 3.

But there is no doubt that Lelouch's sacrifice created better world in the end of season 2. 

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gammadude87 In reply to BrotherCoa [2015-07-07 01:28:18 +0000 UTC]

Well, for one thing, Shirou couldn't explain that to her in Fate/stay night because he didn't realize how wrong it was himself until near the end of the story. It's all well and good to sacrifice your happiness some of the time if it will help others but if you disregard your own happiness completely, then it leads to tragedies like the fall of Saber's kingdom or the awful existence of Archer as a Guardian after Shirou was executed in the future. Perhaps not always quite that severe, but sometimes you have to put yourself in front of others. Not all of the time, certainly, but sometimes.

As for Iskander, I think you're either misremembering what he said or you misunderstood. Here, I'll quote his wiki page to give you a better understanding of what Iskander meant during the Banquet of Kings episode:

"His way of kingship is his greatest pride and as such, he despises Saber's way of kingship, the direct antithesis. He calls her naive for considering sacrificing herself to save her kingdom, and goes so far as to denounce her as a king. He insists that a king should be setting vivid examples to be followed, bond with his subjects at personal level, and his way of living should be something inspiring to and envied by all under his rule, not a distant ideal or martyr whose deeds would be praised yet whose path is so full of sorrow and pain that it would only inspire a sense of dread. To him, a selfless king who isolates himself from his people to die for ideals is nothing but a fool, which is worse than a tyrant. He is also in opinion that a king should be vibrant, a figure who is inspiring and leading his people, instead of being a distant loner who concerns himself only with protecting and saving his people. Ultimately, he would grieve and weep over his losses and mistakes, but he would stay true to himself and never regret decisions made as a king."

In a nutshell, Iskander was telling her that however a king rules, it should inspire people and make them want to live that same kind of life, because while being a martyr is praiseworthy, that kind of life really only inspires dread in other people.

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BrotherCoa In reply to gammadude87 [2015-07-07 07:36:11 +0000 UTC]

'Well, for one thing, Shirou couldn't explain that to her in Fate/Stay Night because he didn't realize how wrong it was himself until near the end of the story.'

Still, he explained to her one thing that many educated/experienced men before him couldn't ( Rin is such fine example ). And he was not wrong fully with his ideals at the beginning of Fate, he still didn't get to the point of joining military where his ideals at the beginning of Fate goes like milk with butter. And saving Saber from the beginning was quite easy 'You wasn't to overdo everything because you want to save your people? Did anyone told you what they have became afterward? ( see picture for reference )'

'It's all well and good to sacrifice your happiness some of the time if it will help others but if you disregard your own happiness completely, then it leads to tragedies like the fall of Saber's kingdom or the awful existence of Archer as a Guardian after Shirou was executed in the future.'

Yeah, tell that to Jesus Christ or Joan of Arc or Nikola Tesla and many others who's personal sacrifices help the advancement of Mankind and as such improved lives of countless million further on. And Saber's Kingdom fell because of jealous of her sister which was there from the moment she got the sword and Guardian Shirou happened because he overused UBW during his lifetime and thus practically and unknowingly creating himself as Guardian Spirit. 

'Not all of the time, certainly, but sometimes.'

Not true, in ancient times if you were a Knight you were always doing this as your creed and codex were like that.
Same goes for military personal today. You cannot be soldier if you don't stand for others every time and anywhere. But many who didn't serve turns cannot understand this.

As for this: 'In a nutshell, Iskander was telling her that however a king rules, it should inspire people and make them want to live that same kind of life, because while being a martyr is praiseworthy, that kind of life really only inspires dread in other people.'

I understood him perfectly and that is why I disagree. King can serve as a model for his people, but in the same time he also don't have. He was just talking from his own example, and since he was only a type of king who's soul interest was conquering instead of actually ruling an empire ( how long his empire lasted after he died? - exactly ) that doesn't make his really credible guy to educate something who was totally opposite of complete selfishness like he was.

And his point was that leader sacrificing for his subject is idiot as there is no reward in that? He was really shortsighted there and main reason why I disagree with him. The persons/leaders/kings/emperor's who sacrifice themselves for the sake of their own people/others actually get more respected and set prime example how others should live and what creed should they follow - in short martyrdom does not inspire dread but praise, but only after said person death. I have in my stash another picture of said event, Rider explaining what you said to me from one said and God Emperor of Mankind on the other. Guess who lived trough selfishness and got his empire ruined in few years after he died and who acted and lived exactly like Saber and got galactic empire in the end

In the end everything here it goes down to my own opinion - 'the blood of martyrs is the seed of Mankind'. Others may see this as bad ( as you yourself have said here, even quoting Fate wiki ) but I see it as greatest thing that individual can do in his/her life, and others who dread about them are doing that because they are not able to do them themselves ( like Iskandar, holding Saber 'lesson' about not doing something that he himself was not able to do in his life ). Also one more thing goes strongly against his point - religion. Religion is all about self sacrificing for the sake of either your God or others, completely opposite of what Iskandar said to Saber. But yet again, he was proven wring as religious martyrs live on in their religion itself, setting example to masses that come after them who follow their example and their words on how to live their lives. I think that even Iskandar would think differently if he meet Jesus Christ as heroic spirit.

And this is all I will say. Feel free to agree or do not agree with me, I said what I wanted.

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gammadude87 In reply to BrotherCoa [2015-07-07 08:19:22 +0000 UTC]

"Not true, in ancient times if you were a Knight you were always doing this as your creed and codex were like that.
Same goes for military personal today. You cannot be soldier if you don't stand for others every time and anywhere. But many who didn't serve turns cannot understand this."

I very much do understand what that's like, as I have both friends and family who served in the military. I would agree with this applying to Saber, except that there are clear examples of multiple knights of the Round Table breaking the Code of Chivalry in just about every version of the Arthurian legend. Heck, if we were to consider versions of Arthur that aren't Saber from Fate/stay night, it's pretty clear that Arthur broke the code himself several times as well. Besides, the Code of Chivalry as we understand it didn't even come to be until sometime between the 11th and 12th centuries, when Saber's reign was supposed to have occurred sometime during the 5th or 6th.


"Yeah, tell that to Jesus Christ or Joan of Arc or Nikola Tesla and many others who's personal sacrifices help the advancement of Mankind and as such improved lives of countless million further on. And Saber's Kingdom fell because of jealous of her sister which was there from the moment she got the sword and Guardian Shirou happened because he overused UBW during his lifetime and thus practically and unknowingly creating himself as Guardian Spirit."

I could argue that Jesus Christ and Joan of Arc leading their lives the way they did actually made them happy, even with all the sacrifices they made. I'm not particularly familiar with Nikola Tesla's career and life (though I am aware of some of his more famous contributions to science), so I can't make any argument about him. As for Morgana, her reason for attempting to depose Arturia is never made specifically clear in the Fate universe, only that she had an unending hatred for her (which, probably stemmed from the fact that Uther, Arturia's father, basically sent Morgana and Morgause's father off to die so that he could take their mother for himself as his wife). Shirou also didn't become a Guardian because of overuse of projection magic and UBW; he became a Guardian because he felt he didn't have enough power to be a Hero of Justice and made a deal with the world to get that power, in exchange for which he would became a Guardian after his death (which only happened because he was betrayed by the very people he helped).

I honestly don't believe either Arturia or Iskander were completely correct in the way they ruled. I believe the middle ground between their particular styles of ruling would probably be best: living a grand life that is the envy of all but also willing to make sacrifices when it's necessary. I think that's my own personal view on the whole thing, really.

Also, I should point out (and I believe that someone else pointed this out as well), that the people of Britain that Saber ruled were not at all the same people who eventually went on to establish the British Empire as it's known today. During the time Saber was supposed to have reigned, Britain was inhabited by Celts and citizens of the Roman Empire who migrated there. When the Roman Empire fell, Britain was left without any military, and became independent out of necessity. This also split Britain into many smaller kingdoms and fiefdoms, with no king to rule the land as a whole. Saber united the land to fight off the invading Anglo-Saxxons (as well as other barbarian forces) after she pulled the sword from the stone. Years later, at the Battle of Camlann, all of Arturia's and Mordred's forces were killed in the battle, with only the two of them remaining in the end (with the notable exception of Bedivere, who brought Arturia's body away from the battlefield), and eventually they died as well from their wounds.

My point is that with both armies dead, and Britain effectively leaderless and without an army once more, the Anglo-Saxxons were free to come in and take it for themselves. And while the Anglo-Saxxons did adopt British customs and stories for themselves, I could argue that Arturia's legend became nothing more than that to them; a legend. Because if it truly inspired them to greatness and to follow her example, then all kings (and queens) of Britain would have aspired to be just like her, when they clearly did not.

"I think that even Iskandar would think differently if he meet Jesus Christ as heroic spirit."

Honestly, that probably would be very interesting, except that Jesus Christ can't be summoned as a Heroic Spirit, since he is, in fact, a Divine Spirit. Summoning Divine Spirits in the Nasuverse is impossible.

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BrotherCoa In reply to gammadude87 [2015-07-07 11:38:20 +0000 UTC]

No comment about the God Emperor of Mankind?

The men who represents epitome of Saber's believes and ideals, and how he ended up - he became a living venerated God of Mankind, his realm over one million planets stretched from one part of Milky Way to another and his armies so mighty that they can turn entire alien civilizations to ash in days.
He paid the price dough ( near death for 10.000 years, death of his several sons with half of them falling to darkness ), but the results were present.

'Shirou also didn't become a Guardian because of overuse of projection magic and UBW; he became a Guardian because he felt he didn't have enough power to be a Hero of Justice and made a deal with the world to get that power, in exchange for which he would became a Guardian after his death (which only happened because he was betrayed by the very people he helped).'

Looks like someone here didn't read extended material and Fate/Ilya manga. The reason Shirou became Archer is not ideals - it's UBW projection. So that in the end Gaia ( world ) choose him for that role, something he probably didn't want. 

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gammadude87 In reply to BrotherCoa [2015-07-07 19:50:23 +0000 UTC]

I didn't comment on him because I'm not familiar with him. However, I will say this; no two people are exactly the same. What worked well for one person is not going to work well for another. I did take the time to look up some info on him, though, and considering that the Emperor of Mankind was basically created by having thousands of shamans reincarnated into a single, practically divine, immortal being with psychic powers and wisdom, it's no wonder that he succeeded. He could have been a bloodthirsty tyrant and would have succeeded.

And back to the subject of Shirou, a direct quote from the wiki:

"He had to make a life changing decision. Confronted by a calamity which had the potential of killing one hundred people before him, he decided to "make a contract" with the World to become a hero capable of producing miracles and become a Heroic Spirit after his death.[5] He believed he could save both the lives of the dying people before him and save even more as a hero after his death. Although he desperately fought to end a war, he was in turn branded as the mastermind behind that war and subsequently executed because of the betrayal of his allies. Although he died of betrayal, he did not hate mankind. However, the "World" ironically gave him the duty as a Heroic Spirit "to slaughter all humans at a particular location when mankind is at the threshold of complete self destruction", a "Counter Guardian"."

Shirou's contract with the world was a choice that he made on his own. Perhaps the world was even the one who approached him with the offer (which is unlikely, as the Counter Force is responsible for the deployment of Guardians, to protect humanity from all danger, even itself at times, and it's only semi-sentient at best). The fact remains, however, that Shirou chose to make the contract with the world of his own free will. He wasn't forced into doing it. It was his own conscious decision.

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BrotherCoa In reply to HDReaper [2015-01-05 09:07:05 +0000 UTC]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVzBcI…

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HDReaper In reply to BrotherCoa [2015-01-05 13:24:52 +0000 UTC]

Cheers! XD

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BrotherCoa In reply to SongofVictory [2014-10-26 09:34:21 +0000 UTC]

Rule Britannia

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BrotherCoa In reply to Izzy00707 [2014-09-08 06:05:22 +0000 UTC]

Thanks

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Izzy00707 In reply to BrotherCoa [2014-09-08 06:06:58 +0000 UTC]

Your welcome~!! 

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BrotherCoa In reply to Jarl-of-the-North [2013-09-27 07:24:08 +0000 UTC]

Sorry, you were saying something?
Me and Saber can't hear you because we were drinking tea while enjoining this song
www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVzBcI…

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Jarl-of-the-North In reply to BrotherCoa [2013-09-27 19:30:46 +0000 UTC]

Like I said. Point taken.

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BrotherCoa In reply to JAP6568 [2013-09-22 10:14:04 +0000 UTC]

I agree for Jesus, he would be among the strongest heroic spirits for sure.
Not sure why Lincoln or Washington when they could be overshadowed by Stalin and Bush ( the logic is that modern heroic spirit > the old ones ).
In terms of heroic spirits the ones that come from distant future would be powerful enough to stomp anyone from the past.
In that regards this guy would be the strongest heroic spirit ever: warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Em…

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BrotherCoa In reply to SqueakyTachibana [2013-09-20 19:42:02 +0000 UTC]

I know that, but what are you going to do. Alexander, even with his all tactical brilliance, was simple minded and selfish ruler.
He didn't see Saber as king as he never understand the meaning of sacrifice for something else, and that is what is making her the greater king as well.

But also granted for her, Saber people ( Britons ) never understood her sacrifice and that is why they were easily deceived by Mordred and rebelled against her ( at least half of them did ). Only later they realized their mistake, when it was too late. Nevertheless they made a living legend out of her, legend that inspired generations to come to thrive and progress and one day to build the greatest empire that spanned the Earth.

"A king is suppose to be proud of their accomplishments, whether they end in greatness or ruin."

To be honest, if somebody just took five minutes to tell her the history of Britain she would change her opinion and came to same conclusion like she did in Fate route.
When I first learned her wish I was like 'WTF? You want to save your people? How and why? By giving them even more power than they have? Somebody need a history class.'

Thank for overview, it was really refreshing remembering all that again.

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BrotherCoa In reply to ThousandMastery [2013-09-20 10:40:32 +0000 UTC]

One is fantasy the other is reality. Here I am going by legacy what they left for their people and not what they do during their timeline, while Gilgamesh was rich and powerful while he was alive he left nothing for his people afterwards to inspire them or to ensure their future. That is why they fall to foreign invaders and lost to the ashes of history. Aside from what I saw in Fate/Zero Gilgamesh had a spaceship so there is a chance that his gods are nothing more than ancient aliens who came here to mine gold and left afterwards ( real life theory )

Gil had the most land?

Neo-Babylonian Empire : 00.5 million km2.
British Empire : 33.7 million km2.

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BrotherCoa In reply to Golbarn [2013-07-31 17:07:16 +0000 UTC]

Thumbs up for answer

Saber's Legacy described in one song:

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BrotherCoa In reply to BrotherCoa [2013-07-31 17:07:51 +0000 UTC]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=25zynT…

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