Comments: 8
nomansland1 [2016-10-18 04:22:06 +0000 UTC]
You put a lot of thought into your work's elements! It's a joy to read. And I can't help but chuckle as every "related work" in the "more on DeviantArt" section is filled with 6-armed anime girl models right now.
Ah anime, a case study of how far "style appeal" can stretch one's definition of "quality".
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jarvik2009 [2016-06-06 21:57:12 +0000 UTC]
I know nothing about this other than I prefer image number three. It appears brighter and sharper and the patterns and creases in her catsuit are more pronounced. Perhaps its slightly hyper realistic but its more compelling to me.
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EKrayon [2016-03-19 23:56:15 +0000 UTC]
Ok...clearly you have given your subject a great deal of thought, and you just as clearly have have done a large amount of study (instruction as well?) on the concept of lighting in art.
Conversely, I am completely self taught in the art department (have read a shite load of books), but more importantly the lion's share of my artistic pursuits have been black and white illustrations. So, I am coming at your topic from a different direction, and while I understand (I think) the points you were making (and was intrigued by them as they were new to me), I would offer this alternative idea as possibly of equal (importance?)--perspective. True perspective (vanishing points, grids, etc) obey a set of rules (with some math at the heart) that range from simple to fairly complex. And most successful artists sort of wing it--but it is after they have absorbed the basic tenets. What might ensue if those basic tenets are never learned?
I offer these observations as evidence: if you watch young children attempt to draw, you note right away that everything is flat, they have no formal notion of perspective at all. I tried teaching my nephew at a young age simple one point perspective (the classic train tracks to the horizon). When I asked him to draw a box, he could not do it.
Second; I attempted to teach a bunch of Boy Scouts how to draw a head in a box, again with simple one point perspective; none of them got it.
I've had many a discussion with adults about illustration, where I adamantly assure them anyone can learn to draw, if you approach it as a skill and LEARN SOME BASICS.
Those that tried, failed and gave up--as almost all do. Why? They can't grasp HOW to do perspective. There are mature reasoning beings, and they SEE perspective all around them in the natural world, but they simply do not know how to translate that to flat illustration. (Digression: I have believed for years that is why almost everyone gives up trying to draw after childhood; they hit the frustration wall in trying to translate what they obviously see around them to a 2 dimensional medium).
Lets be honest; the greatest painting on earth is still a cheat--its a 2D representation of a 3D object. So, if your medieval artists, in their dogged pursuit of the capture of light did not truly understand the rules of perspective, then they had no chance to attain the "focus" they were striving for.
Now clearly, the idea of perspective existed even back then (Da Vinci, etc), but I think they may have had the same problem in not really understanding that there were rules and how they applied. As you pointed out, what they were good at was observation, and I suspect they preferred going "with their gut", and when something did not look right, started coming up with all the tricks you alluded to try and fix things.
So, was it the lack of understanding of how the eye focuses on objects, or the inability to translate real world perspective to a canvas? Truthfully, I suspect both played roles.
SMS
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revbayes In reply to EKrayon [2016-03-20 07:33:56 +0000 UTC]
I'll try to keep this reply from being too long.
Perspective is, indeed, very important. However, it is primarily a drawing problem as opposed to a painting problem. Also, even if we discount what the ancient Greeks and Romans knew, there is still ample evidence that perspective was understood and applied to art before the beginning of the 16th century.
see:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkNMM8…
www.youtube.com/watch?v=YU5khz…
www.dartmouth.edu/~matc/math5.…
Take a look at early 18th century painter, Jean Raoux's "Pygmalion":
upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia…
It is a beautiful painting that captures the seminal point in the early part of the story. However, as a work it is flawed.
Now...he demonstrates specific converging lines that lead to the back of the studio where two other are artist are working on there own sculpture. The perspective doesn't look like it's the problem. In fact, as you look at it, the perspective seems right. So, what's the problem?
Focus...
If you look at the two figures in the background, they are painted with the same clarity as the foreground figures. In fact, everything in the painting is in perfect focus. So what does Raoux do? He uses the same bag of tricks that painters had been using for over 200 years.
1. He mutes the colors in the background. (everything beyond the 1st arch)
2. He casts lighter elements over darker backgrounds (i.e., Aphrodite reclines on a dark grey cloud rather than a white, fluffy cloud)
3. He colors Pygmalion's robes (orange) in contrast to the background behind them (green)
4. He bends the rules of shading in order to get each element properly lit.
5. He tortures the rules of shadow...deliberately...in order to create, "lines of force" that lead the viewer directly to different elements. (i.e., The shadows from the pedestal and from Pygmalion create lines that converge at the baby playing with the pearl necklace...pretty cool, actually)
So...perspective was figured out long ago, but focus still remained a problem.
However, I DO see where you are coming from. To be honest, I think perspective (in art) is less well understood now than it was 200 years ago. For that, I blame two things: art schools and cameras.
For a 100 years now, art schools have denigrated traditional "representative" art in favor of "abstract, social/political" statements. They haven't done due diligence in traditional techniques.
What about cameras? Well, the eye is similar to a camera in that it has a lens and an aperture, however, the eye's focal length is fixed at about 50 to 55mm. A real camera can have many focal lengths...each one giving a different perspective than the others. Before cameras, artists used the perspective of their eyes...that's all they knew. Since cameras have come out almost everyone has seen images or movies or video that has "unnatural" perspective. It warps what we think of as normal for images. For those using 3D rendering programs, it doesn't help that every one uses camera methodology...especially when the defaults on most of the programs are set to 35mm. (I don't know why they do this...perhaps the software engineers are confusing focal length and film size, which was 35mm by default)
OK...I said I was going to keep this short. I failed.
Better end here.
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EKrayon In reply to revbayes [2016-03-25 23:33:42 +0000 UTC]
Ah, clearly this discussion would be so much better served if it continued over several cold beers, but since that is unlikely to happen...
Please be assured I was at no point disagreeing with your theory (as stated, I bow to your clearly superior knowledge about all this coloring stuff). My comment on the perspective factor was more in the line of musing along the lines of "what if it was not as simple as they did not understand "focal length".
When you stop and think about it, they must have at least understood some aspect of it, even if they could not actually formalize it. As men of their time, the one thing they had to be good at was --observation. As such, they would have had to notice--by observation--that natural things clearly got blurrier to the naked eye the further away they were ( or partially obscured by smoke or mist or what have you).
Lacking a formal theory to describe that effect--and in search of the secret of light in the "ether" as a wrong way path--I'm thinking they worked with what they had to try and experimentally (by trial and error) solve the problem.
But another thought occurs to me as well--one of a socio-political nature (rather than a technical one.) These guys were working artists in an age where they were doing it for a living. Which would have meant they didn't get paid until the painting was done. Which also would have lent itself to taking whatever shortcuts were feasible to expedite the process (like cheating on the perspective for instance, or ignoring it--I didn't forget my own point).
But there may be an even more insidious agent. My (limited) understanding of the time frame would have meant that to achieve "professional" status a journeyman system existed. Preferably, you would want to apprentice with a master artist of some renown (so you could garner some fame by association). But that would have meant studying with that master artist, and learning how he painted. I have to believe the conditions and situation would have been such that it would have been really bad form to question the master, or tell him he was "doing it wrong".
So, if the budding artists of the time noted that things were not quite right, they most likely would not have tried rocking the boat by questioning the prevalent thoughts of "solutions to the problem" with the in vogue stylistic painting schools. And by the time they could go off and get their own apprentices they were subsumed in the system and would only perpetuate it.
I think that is enough crazy-eddie speculation on my part.
What else can we talk about.. their fascination with painting chunky women..(hhok)...
SMS
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revbayes In reply to revbayes [2016-03-21 03:43:36 +0000 UTC]
One last thing...
While the geometry of artistic perspective allows us to create a grid that keeps the perspective consistent within the drawing, there's no hard and fast rule that ensures correct focal length (depth) within the picture. Fewer grid squares to the vanishing point = a shorter focal length, while more grid squares equal a longer focal length...but where is your reference? How many grid squares in any particular picture = the 50-55 mm focal length of the human eye? It winds up being a guess. Just a matter of, "what looks right"...at least to the artist. Most artists who, "get it wrong" simply misjudge the number of squares to the vanishing point.
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revbayes In reply to revbayes [2016-03-21 05:11:05 +0000 UTC]
Actually...a couple more last things.
The picture illustrates the problems using vanishing point perspective. Is that really a 120mm focal length, or are you just bending low to the ground? 20mm, or flying high?
revbayes.deviantart.com/art/Gr…
Lastly...(really, I mean it!) geometrically, the number of grid lines becomes infinite as they reach the vanishing point. That means the grid method is only viable for objects that are fairly close to the viewer. All distant objects are treated as if they are projected on a flat plain.
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Lawsonwelles [2016-03-16 01:43:00 +0000 UTC]
Nice job! The text is great too!
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