Comments: 37
Savachika [2013-03-05 20:00:30 +0000 UTC]
Oh no...
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larqven [2011-05-04 05:42:42 +0000 UTC]
Ok. The dwarves who fought to the last man WERE NOT the Nortunk dwarves. The Nortunk dwarves had no role in the battle. Were they engaged later, of did they turn around and escape first?
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Shabazik In reply to larqven [2011-05-04 10:21:59 +0000 UTC]
They determinated it wasn't anymore a good idea to face, alone, again the power of Negeémiliel and returned: luckily they hadn't declarated the war so far XD
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larqven In reply to Shabazik [2011-05-04 12:12:39 +0000 UTC]
In their fortresses, cavernous underground bases, or mountain homes, dwarves will be very hard to beat. The same isn't quite true going from one place to another! Traditionally they hunker down in their fortifications or defined fields of battle--fighting shoulder to shoulder! There's probably a very good reason for that! Getting caught while traveling in a column and in the open would be very bad for them as they travel rather slowly! Still, that armor they wear helps mitigate that problem a bit, I suppose?
Maybe they'd do well in phalanx arrangements? Their height may be short, but they can probably hold long spears over the shields of their fellows to the front as well as humans! They'd make short little slow steps with those short legs and under the weight of armor--but they wouldn't be pushed back very easily at all!
Yes, it is probably very good indeed the Nortunk dwarves hadn't done anything to get themselves hunted down! Probably good for Negeemiliel as well--an extra manuever that may or may not net those dwarves might have taken time. If they had chased them all the way back to Nortunk and lost, it would have seemed wasteful. No need to start another war either, so soon on the heels of concluding the previous one, which had its obvious triumphs, but expensive failures as well.
Eliminating those 2,500 dwarves might have served them in good stead if the dwarves would have been willing to go to war! Dahl'Arak did well, perhaps to have resisted the temptation. It would have been another slaughter, but perhaps not a cheap one; especially with a new war of reprisals that might have opened up. I don't know how many prisoners the drow took, but suppose the humans and Kanovs who withdrew, and the others who broke out of the pincer numbered 5,000? If the drow killed two thirds of the remaining 10,000, they would have over 3,000 prisoners to deal with. Not only that, they have their own wounded which must be in the hundreds.
The drow probably aren't going to be moving fast right now either until they get back to base? So, yeah, chasing down those Nortunk dwarves may seem like a good idea, but probably isn't for both tactical and strategic reasons. Avoiding unnecessary war is a good idea even if it might seem that the dwarves had it coming. There is the political situation at home to worry about as well.
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Shabazik In reply to larqven [2011-05-06 17:31:33 +0000 UTC]
The dwarves tactics?
Normally, they prefeer to fight in caverns or their fortresses, or asume in the open a defensive possition and old it, sometimes with some sort of phalanx, but they forces aren't very offensive and maneubravle:
And since, thousands of year ago, the defeat of the Nortunk Empire in the surface, the dwarves try to avoid fighting in the surface, at least in massive battles :3
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larqven [2011-05-04 04:33:07 +0000 UTC]
"For the drows, you "guestimation" of High Gadolinia and previous actions is maybe to high... or at least, not so much of the drow troopers there where as painfully to loss like acolytes of Negeé."
Yeah, the 5,000 losses are pretty high, a battle of annihilation on face value! Although, I was including ALL losses and withdrawals from all sources in the war up to the battle of Cilfach. Hundreds of losses in initial Hebonnor invasion and siege(s). Also, losses including and following the Battle of High Gadolinia, even up to and during Dahl'Arak's reorganization. It is largely supposition about the numbers, it was a total which made sense to me, at least at the time of writing!
I'm assuming that many of the drow were mercenaries--not all of the 5,000 were necessarily casualties either, but battered mercenary companies that chose to withdraw rather than risk their existence as an ongoing company by another battle. That, and perhaps some mercenaries or soldiers taking special leave who also chose to withdraw in the course of the siege with the arrival of reinforcements?
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Shabazik In reply to larqven [2011-05-08 02:12:36 +0000 UTC]
I think 5.000 is a very close number to the casualities I was thinking for this, but of these casualities I suppose not all are dead -many desertions, companies that withdraw like you say, some prisioners and such, and not all the losses due combat but as well diseases and others- and from these casualities, being most of them militias followed by mercenaries :3
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larqven In reply to Shabazik [2011-05-08 08:36:57 +0000 UTC]
Thanks! XD
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rylee91 [2011-05-02 16:03:21 +0000 UTC]
a very nice story.
it reminds me of the Battle of Cannae.
the whole point of a Encirclement is to take away the benefits of far superior numbers, picture a circle in a circle (or ring), the circumference of the outside circle is larger then the inside circle which in practice means the drow force had more women in there battle line then the Hebonnor allies.
so it is not too surprising that the drow where able to defeat a much larger enemy force, although a 3 to 1 ratio is still pretty impressive.
also just because the drow won a battle does not mean they have conquered the kingdom, Hannibal defeated the entire roman army twice (they rebuilt it bigger then before) and he still did not conquer rome.
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Shabazik In reply to rylee91 [2011-05-02 18:37:12 +0000 UTC]
Yes, but the constitution of rome was quite different:
In Rome of that time, the power wasn't personal, but the Hebonnor are united due their king, and without it, the whole kingdom fall to pieces: if he is captured, they get in the worse situation, they can't raise a legitime ruler who pose as king to unify meanwhile he is prisioner:
Also, meanwhile Rome had the population, power and will to raise new armies if they lost one, is not the case of the Hebonnor :3
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rylee91 In reply to Shabazik [2011-05-03 09:59:38 +0000 UTC]
yes of course kingdoms have been conquered by far less impressive victorys if the drow play there cards right they could easily end up ruling much more then just the Hebonnor lands.
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larqven [2011-05-02 07:03:08 +0000 UTC]
The two "intimidated" drow to the right probably are surprised about the greater sized of these mountain elves! XD
This was probably a very savage battle for the drow as well! The Hebonnor forces and allies were 15,000, or maybe even over 17,000 strong depending on how the Nortunk dwarven contingent is counted in the total. Even with the benefits of far superior training, tactics, terrain and the encirclement, taking on an armed mass of folks outnumbering yours 2 to 3 times is a nifty trick! I suppose that those wishy washy humans and Kanovs might have ran away before getting encircled, and some fighters broke throught the encirclement and got away, but it was still 2 to 1 at least. Desperation may not make good fighters per se, but it might well stiffen the spine!
This is a fantastic victory to be sure! It ended the war, and decapitated the Hebonnor government, probably also resulted in lots of killed and captured high nobles as well. But drow losses might well have been heavy as a result of the encirclement and neutralizing such a large army? I've "guestimated" that 5,000 drow have been killed, captured, or otherwise discharged in the Battle of High Gadolinia and previous and post actions to that drow loss. Possibly several hundred or more drow might have become casualties as a result of this battle? This war might have been a clear victory for Negeemiliel over Hebonnor, but in might be a Phyrric one as drow acolytes are skilled fighters, but hard to replace!
I suppose that negotiations might win the release of drow captives in the hands of the Hebonnor? Dahl'Arak might be able to restore her ranks that way? Probably depends on how many intact prisoners that the Hebonnor took!
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Neane [2011-05-01 07:59:48 +0000 UTC]
The most important battles are fought with the smallest numbers of troops.
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Shabazik In reply to Neane [2011-05-01 15:41:06 +0000 UTC]
very true!
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larqven [2011-04-30 18:34:45 +0000 UTC]
I probably have more to say--but can't think of what it was right now! Let me comment that the recent pics have been wonderful mountain scenes! I particularly like the peaks in the distance and the conifer trees lining the slopes of the valley. It gives the impression of the green curtains flanking the battle that the drow forces were hiding behind observing, and waiting to strike!
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Shabazik In reply to larqven [2011-04-30 21:36:51 +0000 UTC]
Thanks! I'm glad you liked the background! :3
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Billie-Bonce [2011-04-30 13:26:15 +0000 UTC]
The scale of the battle is less than that of, say, the Battle of Grunwald, not to say about the Battle of Berestechko... But still very impressive, and many compliments to the beautiful lady who won the battle!
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Shabazik In reply to Billie-Bonce [2011-04-30 15:29:49 +0000 UTC]
yes, is very true: in numbers, was a rather small battle: even more considerating for example the battles being fighted meanwhile by the Blazakhovian and Uslen human empires, for example, or the massive battles in the first Great War of the Power...
but of course, both Hebonnor and Negeémiliel, secondary players in the field of politics in southern Aels, who only rised thanks to the power vacuum after the first Great War of the powers, who weakened the protagonists -the human empire of Uslen, the kanov caliphate of Blazakhov, Satman the Disciple, The nigromancer of Tok-Thoria in the south, and the Holy Kingdom of Purpurian to the north-, can't field larger armies... and less, being elven nations :3
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KO-Corral [2011-04-30 12:39:21 +0000 UTC]
Of course, my compliments on the excellent battle scene...but I particularly like the "^" mark across the central Drow's face heh
Also, those two off to the right look a little intimidated! How unusual! : O
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Shabazik In reply to KO-Corral [2011-04-30 15:35:20 +0000 UTC]
Well, I suppose people could get some doubts when fighting, isn't true? XD
Also, I'm glad you liked her. :3
I actually designed her armor (and including the warpaint) some months ago... and was the first pic of a drow acolyte with battle armor X3
[link]
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KO-Corral In reply to Shabazik [2011-04-30 23:15:38 +0000 UTC]
No doubts allowed! Doubts are how you lose! ; D
Ah! So she's not brand new - I always love how almost everything you draw has a past and depth to it, Al - you really know 'your' world perfectly. XD
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Shabazik In reply to KO-Corral [2011-05-01 15:30:20 +0000 UTC]
Well, not perfectly!
I make mistakes mostly when writing, changing things and forgetting I changed them, or being to lazy to check if there is concordancy.
That happen me mostly with my timelines XD
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larqven [2011-04-30 08:03:16 +0000 UTC]
So this is how it all turned out! Hildetriel had advantages of numbers of troops and his cavalry, he was the victim of a bottleneck and encirclement action. Shameful for Mountain elves to be defeated by being outflanked by hidden wings of the enemy drow hiding in the wooded slopes! Many of the troops represented in the doomed charges might have been put to better use in fighting in the woods trying to outflank the enemy? The cavalry sent to attempt an attack from the rear? The dwarves holding the front line, and the humans and Kanovs sandwiched between the dwarves and the bulk of the king's army?
The numbers of longbowmen and savage forest fighting--and patience to whittle the drow down without committing to a full frontal attack might have carried the day. Forcing the drow to retreat by attrition would have made them more vulnerable, or to attack themselves would have somewhat switched the advantages of offense/defense in a small valley. Some troops and maybe the cavalry might have cut supplies to the drow and attempted to attack them from behind. Impatience destroyed the advantages the king had. He should have been willing to spend days on this to maximize his own advantages.
Well, General Dahl'Arak gambles and wins! And she wins big! What will she do with her victory?
Negeemiliel had a foothold on the surface world, now it has a seat and "platform" to fight from. Of course winning the kingdom and keeping it may be two different things! Insurgencies are no joke to deal with to be sure! The drow may seem less burdensome than do-nothing nobles, and the drow might offer many things. Foreign invasion often brings the people of a country together to fight in hit and run warfare even when their native rulers are worthless. I can't pretend to know the best way to hold a conquered country, as both ruthlessness while appearing to be benign and beneficial to the conquered country are often necessary.
Dahl'Arak cannot count on Negeemiliel to support her as the government is changing. Indeed, she may be cut off by her own people. She does hold many of the raw resources that Negeemiliel needs. The sheer magnitude of her victory might well change the thrust of the coup as the government will be unsure of what to do in the wake of winning a new territory of considerable importance. It is not unlikely though, that they may ignore it as they are caught in their own political concerns and the surface might seem unimportant?
Dahl'Arak will almost certainly have become a hero to the people? If she comes in "Julia Ceasar" style, she might capitalize on that and foil the coup in favor of the senatorial party, perhaps politically "highjack" the Popular coup by becoming a "Populist" herself, or else try and become a dictator? Julius Ceasar himself was less than successful in ruling long in that capacity though!
Who does Dahl'Arak leave behind to secure the captured kingdom? Her middle daughter? Possible, if she proves trustworthy. I can somehow see her screwing up by becoming reviled as a cruel butcher and causing much of the land to slip from the grasp of the drow? She might betray the mother--then again, the opportunity the mother is siezing is quite tremendous for an ambitious drow--of course, so are the risks! General Dahl'Arak is perhaps charming enough to get people in and out of Negeemiliel to tolerate her as illegitimate ruler? She will have to choose sides between her own party's values and the populists, or walk a tightrope between them in holding onto power.
Her own daughters may join or revile her depending on what she does and what is in it for them!
Playing it safe is no guarantee either. Again, she has to hold onto the surface kingdom she has captured, realign it for the maintenance of her army, and charm the populace enough not sap her resources severely. A tall order in itself, if she turns against the Negeemiliel government as a result of the impending coup should the coup succeed. She might well starve Negeemiliel into reversing the populist revolution; but that will be difficult and will ensure that she is a hated figure amongst the common populace, and amongst many citizens as well.
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animal-delos [2011-04-30 04:40:04 +0000 UTC]
Whoah! History lesson! o.o Crazyness! Trying to take it all in!
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doomie220 [2011-04-30 03:36:51 +0000 UTC]
Finally the drows wins and the prisioners are free!
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Shabazik In reply to doomie220 [2011-04-30 03:37:26 +0000 UTC]
what prisioners? :S?
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doomie220 In reply to Shabazik [2011-04-30 04:41:19 +0000 UTC]
Your description did say prisioners...ohhhh elves are prisoners!
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doomie220 [2011-04-30 03:34:54 +0000 UTC]
Finally the drows wins!
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