Persona22 In reply to sallyfourth [2022-06-01 19:41:28 +0000 UTC]

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Persona22 In reply to alexwarlorn [2018-07-02 21:44:15 +0000 UTC]

How would that affect the future concept of Magic in the EQG-Earth? Be it Sci-Twi, Trixie, or whoever it ends up being, how does one reach Draconniqohood in POV universe rules? (I mean, we saw many times others reach Alicornhood. But Diamond Tiara is the closest any character had come to being a Draconnequi. Then there's Fluttercruel, but I'm not sure she counts since she was MADE by Discord.)

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Persona22 In reply to alexwarlorn [2017-12-28 15:04:41 +0000 UTC]

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Persona22 In reply to Jarkes [2017-11-29 19:04:36 +0000 UTC]

Thank you, glad you liked it

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Persona22 In reply to Richforce [2017-11-27 14:37:21 +0000 UTC]

Thanks, for me its always nice to write something that sparks debate without easy answers.

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Persona22 In reply to alexwarlorn [2017-11-14 03:14:48 +0000 UTC]

Also, if you want me to just answer these question myself, to belive whatever I want about it and write a story accordingly THEN SAY SO. But in doing so, please be aware that I will expect you to respect said conclusions, whatever they might be if you agree with them or not, the reason I asked in the first place is so YOU have the opportunity to set the record straight about the characters personalities, motivations and reactios before anyone else can make wrong assumptions about them. But if you don't care either way, then don't. But leave said conclusion alone. Don't go "Actually, THIS is how she/he would react to this" because I asked you before that and no answer was provided.

So, if to you it is an important subject about the world and story you've built and cannot leave the details to be interpreted by others in whatever way they want, then I urge you, I beg you, to please answer the questions in detail.

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Persona22 In reply to alexwarlorn [2017-11-14 03:03:20 +0000 UTC]

To recap, the questions are:

How does Celestia view herself in the issue of how she has allowed ponies to see pony histroy?
How does Luna view how Celestia has allowed ponies to see pony history? What will she do about it?
What will Celestia do about Luna doing something about it?
How would Twilight react to these events and revelations? How would Applejack react to these events and revelations?

Also, WHAT exaclty has she allowed ponies to know about pony history. We know all about the history of Equestria from reading the different pony POV stories you have written. So the question would be: What do the History books of Equestria SAY that happened in different events. What is Equestria's official historical records on events that we know happened. And how did those events REALLY happen. Also, if possible, give Celestia's justification for hiding said event, what were her reasons and what was she expecting to accomplish by hiding them.

Example: We know that Celestia basically made Nightmare Moon into a legend and the poy equivalent of Halloween, and thus everyone was surpirsed when it turned out she was real AND Luna's sister. So, the official historical records of said event is: It never happened, Nightmare Moon is a legend. The REAL historical event is Lune rose agains Celestia, became Nightmare Moon, and was banished to the moon.


Again, answer these to the best of your abilities and provide as much in depth as possible. Present them as a character profile if that makes it easier. And answer them when you have the time and energy to do so, but please, I need to know.

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alexwarlorn In reply to Persona22 [2017-11-14 04:30:51 +0000 UTC]

I have asked Kendell2 to articulate my answers, he agreed on the grounds that he was to have no further involvement in this whatsoever under any circumstances and should never be contacted on this subject at any time or place. I trust Kendell2 to speak for me, for he knows me and my tastes quite well.

 For the record. I do not like quantifying something until I'm right dab in the story text, because the story may have evolved in a completely different way by the time I get there. And it can sometimes ruin the air of mystery (Lovecraft KNEW not to reveal a lot of details about his monsters and outer gods). For example: The Shining Armor arc was filled with so much military and political detail that it all went over my head and left me unable to process any of it. 

"Also, WHAT exaclty has she allowed ponies to know about pony history."

Anything and everything they've learned on their own. She has made no effort what so effort to suppress knowledge or history what so ever. She just has to say, keep peace with Tiamat, help reconstruction of Griffinstone, even out trade agreements with the Yaks, meeting with representatives from every city in Equestria, dealing with the upper-crust, preventing corruption, keeping the crime rate down, and a million other things even WITH Luna there, and find time to sleep on top of it than spend her time looking over history reports and correcting the details. 

Running a country as head of state is HARD WORK. That's why Presidents age way faster than the rest of us.

When you say 'Allowed' it explicitly creates a loaded question, creating an impression that Celly was watching every history book, censoring anything she disapproved of. If she had time to do THAT, she would have had time to correct the history books to prevent mistakes from cropping up to begin with.

""How does Celestia view herself in the issue of how she has allowed ponies to see pony histroy?""

Most likely guilty over it, but also aware that she literally couldn't fact check for them the last thousand years because she's barely had time to SLEEP. IE, she feels bad for it but also knows things where outside of her control. But also feeling like she CAN'T dump everything on them at once or it might cause them to repeat the mistakes they made that destroyed the Golden Age in BOTH timelines if they don't learn from their ancestor's mistakes by learning their fate the cold hard way of finding their ruins.

"How does Luna view how Celestia has allowed ponies to see pony history? What will she do about it?"

Probably not happy about it, but also understanding if she'd been present to counterbalance Celestia as they're MEANT TO, then this wouldn't have been a problem. Keep in mind, Luna DOES have fault in this because if she hadn't fallen, she'd be both present to counterbalance Celestia AND Celestia wouldn't have been working herself half to death doing BOTH their jobs for a thousand years.

As for what she'd do about it, probably start helping ponies figure it out as best she can. Note: there's an ISSUE if she just TELLS them: they'll assume she's making up a bias account of what happened or just telling HER SIDE of it, or rewriting history rather than new discoveries naturally changing their perception of it. She'd probably desire swifter progress than her sister by nature, but again, Celestia would probably counterbalance her to prevent it from going TOO fast.

"What will Celestia do about Luna doing something about it?"

Probably counterbalance her to make sure things don't go too fast, probably leaving to several arguments that they're SUPPOSED to have naturally, both as sisters AND as counterbalances by their very nature.

"How would Twilight react to these events?" 

That's a COMPLICATED case, but probably understanding given she knows FAR MORE about the entire situation than a normal person to a degree that could've been dangerous for her sanity had she not been guided through it. Keep in mind, not everyone would take learning about Entropy or Havoc WELL. Twilight did, but how would the average person reacting to 'there's a giant serpent bigger than the universe that will one day swallow it when the last star dies and who's domain is populated by those who were erased from existence'. There are things men were not meant to know, and Twilight KNOWS that.

"How would Applejack react to these events?"

Probably side with Luna.

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Persona22 In reply to alexwarlorn [2017-11-14 04:47:47 +0000 UTC]

"I have asked Kendell2 to articulate my answers, he agreed on the grounds that he was to have no further involvement in this whatsoever under any circumstances and should never be contacted on this subject at any time or place. I trust Kendell2 to speak for me, for he knows me and my tastes quite well."

I won't, I'll keep the discussion between the two of us.

"For the record. I do not like quantifying something until I'm right dab in the story text, because the story may have evolved in a completely different way by the time I get there."

Understandable, but all of these things are technically "the past" as in they already happened. So reviewing them would go more into the grounds of retcon than quantifying the world.

NEXT IS A TIP ON STORYTELLING, HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ORIGINAL QUESTIONS YOU CAN INGNORE IT IF YOU DON'T CARE
And, by the way, in the writing classes I took, all my teachers encouraged that I give every character a full biography and create a general timeline for a world's events if said world was a fantasy world, because that keeps the story constant. Sure, the reader might not need to know that a certain character collects bottlecaps as a hobby, but the writer knows it and can build the story better around the character, makes him more grounded and easy to write.

Kind of how Tolkien wrote the Silmarillion, but never with the intention to publish it. Tolkien's son published it years after Tolkien's death. But Tolkien had that information handy so as to know what was happening when and why and who had what motivation to so stuff. And that's just one example, I can guarantee you that every major writer does that. It was part of Writing 101. (And I don't mean literture classes, I actually did take a course on how to write stories. Had to present a full written story, copyrigh it and all, in order to pass the course. Never published, I never intended it to be published, I just wrote it for the class.)
END OF TIP ON STORYTELLING, FOLLOWING THIS NOW IS ON THE LINES OF ORIGINAL QUESTION

"Anything and everything they've learned on their own."

Okay, but WHAT is what they have learned on their own?
This is what I mean with half an answer.

"That's a COMPLICATED..."

I wasn't asking about stuff like Havoc or Entropy. They are technically speaking, outside of what one would consider a Historical Event.

I'm asking more along the lines of: King Sombra, Discord's reign, the Second Pony Era AKA Golden Age of Ponies. Dream Castle and the ponies of Paradise Estate. The Three Tribes Era. Tirek. Megan. The fact that elves and humans existed but now they don't.

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alexwarlorn In reply to Persona22 [2017-11-14 05:33:48 +0000 UTC]

Again, asked Kendell2 to be my articulator for this. Since he knows me inside and out and often better than I know myself if I'm to be honest. But I really hope that this gives you satisfying answers at last so we can all move on. 

"Understandable, but all of these things are technically "the past" as in they already happened. So reviewing them would go more into the grounds of retcon than quantifying the world.

And, by the way, in the writing classes I took, all my teachers encouraged that I give every character a full biography and create a general timeline for a world's events if said world was a fantasy world, because that keeps the story constant. Sure, the reader might not need to know that a certain character collects bottlecaps as a hobby, but the writer knows it and can build the story better around the character, makes him more grounded and easy to write.

Kind of how Tolkien wrote the Silmarillion, but never with the intention to publish it. Tolkien's son published it years after Tolkien's death. But Tolkien had that information handy so as to know what was happening when and why and who had what motivation to so stuff. And that's just one example, I can guarantee you that every major writer does that. It was part of Writing 101. (And I don't mean literture classes, I actually did take a course on how to write stories. Had to present a full written story, copyrigh it and all, in order to pass the course. Never published, I never intended it to be published, I just wrote it for the class.)"

True, but there are some things even he explicitly kept unknown, like Tom Bombadil a complete mystery on purpose. Tolkien expressly said that he's not ANYTHING else he introduced or created and that something should remain mysterious in any narrative, and to quote: "especially if an explanation actually exists". Other such unexplained beings also exist in his work for this reason. You're not WRONG, it's simply that Tolkien also advised not to explain everything and leave mysteries.

"Okay, but WHAT is what they have learned on their own?

This is what I mean with half an answer."

They've found ruins, DVD players that are practically fossilized, Yearling found a nuclear waste site, but they've yet to 'hit the motherload' and realized what any of it means.

"Understandable. Let me put it like this: Twilight knows that Celestia is responsible for the Windigoes. She chose to keep it a secret.

How would Applejack react to knowing that? How would Applejack react to knowing that Twilight knew about it?

I suppose that Luna would agree to keep at a secret too. BUT she will also say that it should not remain a secret FOREVER. Would she?"

Remember, AJ also knows Luna's blunder with Tirek, but chose to keep it secret. So the two BOTH know a secret about the Princesses they're keeping secret.

There's no real reason TO tell anyone about the Windigos, as they're extinct except for Luna's benign pet that isn't hurting anyone.

"I wasn't asking about stuff like Havoc or Entropy. They are technically speaking, outside of what one would consider a Historical Event.

I'm asking more along the lines of: King Sombra, Discord's reign, the Second Pony Era AKA Golden Age of Ponies. Dream Castle and the ponies of Paradise Estate. The Three Tribes Era. Tirek. Megan. The fact that elves and humans existed but now they don't."

As far as Celestia and Luna likely go back is the Three Tribes Area, remember they were physically BORN shortly before the beginning of Discord's reign.

As for what ponies know:

Megan and the Paradise Ponies are the 'Age of Myths' they're seen at present as like the Arthurian myths or the Greek Myths, legends which may hold some truth to them. Megan is seen as a mythological legendary heroine. This all holds true to the humans and elves existing.

The Golden Age, is at best seen like the Lost City of Atlantis, Mu, and so on. Saint Sweetheart IS considered to have once existed and her actions during the three tribes era ARE remembered, if somewhat inflated by myth. Originally she was only SAID to have genuine supernatural healing abilities, but post cosmic retcon she actually DID and it's in her family line.

Three Tribes Era is pretty much remembered well enough, with the 'popular' version told in plays glossing over some of the more horrific details of it. No one knows Celestia made the Windigos but Twilight.

Discord's reign was largely forgotten, in part intentionally to punish him by destroying his legacy. It's important to remember that Celestia genuinely had every reason to believe Discord would remain imprisoned for all time and never escape again.

King Sombra and the Crystal Empire are likely in the history books, but do remember the Empire was a separate kingdom at the time isolated VERY MUCH SO by geography a thousand years ago.

Tirek's SECOND rampage, however, as shown in canon, is pretty much recorded in history and findable by anyone who looks for it. His first rampage or for that matter that Tirek and the one mentioned in the 'myth' of midnight castle being the same entity is likely foggy. But Ponies DO consider Tirek a Satanic figure, as they don't know Morning Star exists.

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Persona22 In reply to alexwarlorn [2017-11-14 05:46:52 +0000 UTC]

Yes, this answers every doubt and question I had on the whole issue. Thank you.
And sorry that it came down to this. I know it was tyring, and please give my apologies to Kendell2 for me being the cause of him geting dragged down to this discussion. I woud do so myself but you specifically told me not to contact him about this.

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alexwarlorn In reply to Persona22 [2017-11-14 05:55:20 +0000 UTC]

And Twilight GAVE Bon-Bon journal to Bon Bon! (minus the parts that took place in G3 and the afterlife). So Bon Bon has a strong record of the lives of the Tales Seven now. 

And Apple Bloom's vision of the revised Our Town had Starlight's REAL 'staff of sameness' actually being a 'key' to unlock the knowledge stored in the cutie mark magic of lines of ponies from the age of Wonders. (those descended from the Magic Message Ponies).  mylittlewiki.org/wiki/Mirror_M…  Starlight was completely misusing it for its actual purpose. (Which is to 'unlock' the knowledge stored in those cutie marks for safe keeping.) 

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alexwarlorn In reply to Persona22 [2017-11-14 05:48:27 +0000 UTC]

Also know, ZECORA IS USING HER PAST LIFE MEMORIES OF BEING MISS HACKNEY TO HELP DIRECT archeological digs, in between being Kifuko's tutor on Zebra culture. And still being Ponyville's resident alchemist/witch doctor. 

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Persona22 In reply to alexwarlorn [2017-11-14 06:10:54 +0000 UTC]

Well, between Bon Bon's dirary thing, Apple Bloom's find and Zecora helping in archelogical digs, it does seem like Equestria is entering RIGHT NOW into a sort of Historical revival and/or revision of sorts. Kind of like the Equestrian equivalent of finding the Dead Sea Scrolls. Or digging up the ruins of Göbekli Tepe. www.youtube.com/watch?annotati…
Things we have recently find out about, and we are still trying to wrap our heands around since the challenge our current views on history.

Would you agree with this statement (that Equestria is undergoing right now a Historical revision/revival of sorts)?

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alexwarlorn In reply to Persona22 [2017-11-14 07:05:57 +0000 UTC]

Or perhaps it's right on the bloody verge of one! When they're not dealing with Tirek, the return of the Crystal Empire, the changeling remnant, and storm king invasion, etc. Like all fictional characters, they are cursed to live in interesting times.

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Persona22 In reply to alexwarlorn [2017-11-14 14:50:17 +0000 UTC]

No, what I meant is that they are on the verge of finding things that will allow them to re write PAST history. Writing PRESENT history for future generations is another thing completely different.

That's why I pointed out the finding of Gobekli Tepe: that digsite basically made us re write the entire history of stone age hunter gatherers.

Example: Like you pointed out beofre (or Kendell2 did and you passed it along), present ponies see the Second Era/Golden Age as we see Atlantis. Now imagine what would happen TO US if we suddenly find archeological irrefutable proof that Atlantis was 100% real.

Will we actually see something like that happening, eventually, in the POV stories?

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alexwarlorn In reply to Persona22 [2017-11-14 15:37:45 +0000 UTC]

"Will we actually see something like that happening, eventually, in the POV stories?"

Unsure. Mostly cause this is the final battle I'm writing, so I'm not sure if I'll include it in the epilogue because I have so many notes that I don't remember all of them. 

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Persona22 In reply to alexwarlorn [2017-11-14 16:13:08 +0000 UTC]

I see.
Disappointing, since I always find a story that touches on social development to be fun to read.
But understandable, since you have stated before that POV is over after the final battle.

I had my hopes up on the remote chance that there MIGHT be a mini stoy of sorts on the subject. Like how you wrote about Sunset's origin, or Starlight's origin, or the Siren's origins. But it is totally understandable if you simply don't do it.

Would you mind if I try giving it a shot?

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alexwarlorn In reply to Persona22 [2017-11-14 16:37:06 +0000 UTC]

No I don't mind.

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alexwarlorn In reply to Persona22 [2017-11-14 16:31:35 +0000 UTC]

"Would you mind if I try giving it a shot?"

As long as you don't do anything that breaks the world. 

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Persona22 In reply to alexwarlorn [2017-11-14 16:39:42 +0000 UTC]

Be aware that what I would write would not affect the "present" but instead span over the course of a century into the "future".

So, what exactly would "break the world"?

If you aren't sure what would "break the world", I could simply write something, send it to you and you can say what goes and what needs to be changed.

Would that be preferable?

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alexwarlorn In reply to Persona22 [2017-11-14 16:26:39 +0000 UTC]

I'm working against a deadline, which I already don't have enough time to finish. And it's because I can't cover every possible aspect of the story world that I made this work open source. 

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Persona22 In reply to alexwarlorn [2017-11-14 03:01:14 +0000 UTC]

Okay, but that does not give a complete in depth answer to the questions I posted. Which is what I really neeed to know.

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