HOME | DD

105697 — WHY ANDRY!!!!!

#andrewsarchus #carnivore #cenozoic #hippos #ungulates #whales #entelodonts #anthracotheres
Published: 2017-03-19 22:11:24 +0000 UTC; Views: 5543; Favourites: 82; Downloads: 15
Redirect to original
Description WHY DO YOU HAVE TO BE SO FRAGMENTARY!!!!!

Also, Hippooink

Andrewsarchus was described by Henry Fairfield Osborn. Only the skull was found, but it was HUGE. 83.4 cm in length to be exact. Osborn decided to scale the creature to find out its size. He thought that the skull belonged to an mesonychid, a family of carnivorous mammals that were ungulates, or hoofed animals. Osborn's calculations put Andrewsarchus as the largest carnivore to walk the Earth since the dinosaurs. This idea has been accepted for many years, and made its way in public endorsement and TV shows like Walking With Beasts. Then in late 2000's, Andrewsarchus was found to show very little affinities with mesonychids, and were instead placed in the family Cetancodontamorpha, a family that also inlcudes entelodonts, anthracotheres, hippos, and ,yes, whales.

And since then this is what we have learned about Andrewsarchus
-It's big
-It's a cetancodontamorph
......
Yeah, that's about it......
Since all we have is a SINGLE skull from a SINGLE individual, the appearance of Andrewsarchus remains almost a complete mystery. Heck, we don't even know what it ate. The only skull doesn't preserve the canines, and there are other factors as well (more on that later). The fact we only have a single skull just ticks me off since this is such a cool animal. (I bet that someone is gonna find post-cranial of Andrewsarchus just like they did with Spinosaurus and Deinocheirus) We can however guess with some certainty as to what this creature may have looked like.

First off: Size. Osborn said that Andrewsarchus was the largest land carnivore since the dinosaurs, but this was with mesonychid proportions, and as we now know, Andrewsarchus was not a mesonychid. So how could the size be found? Well, me, , and decided to find out. We looked at several of Andrewsarchus' closest relatives. We used entelodonts, close cousins of that looked a lot like pigs despite not being pigs, and anthractotheres, hippo like relatives that were more terrestrial than hippos. The results based on these two groups gave length estimates between 3.1-3.3 meters and mass estimates between 980-1200 kg. I wouldn't take these estimates with complete certainty though, since all we have of Andrewsarchus is the skull, but it is clear that this was a pretty big animal. Because we used entelodont and anthracothere measurements, I decided to use entelodont and anthracothere proportions in my Andrewsarchus. The back half and front legs are from an anthracothere, while the body and neck are from an entelodont. The head's reference was the actual skull of Andrewsarchus.

Secondly: Diet. Despite what Walking With Beasts and all those 90's prehistory pop-culture wanted you think, Andrewsarchus wasn't a bone crusher.

From Darren Naish
"While it may well be that Andrewsarchus was an entelodont-like predator and/or omnivore (for more on entelodonts see Tet Zoo picture of the day # 23 and Giant killer pigs from hell), there are, however, indications that Andrewsarchus was freakishly weird, and doing something very special. In fact, the weirdness of its skull is routinely not depicted correctly in life restorations. Its snout is strikingly long and narrow, and ‘pinched in’ about half-way along its length. The result is that the distal end of the rostrum forms a sub-circular rosette that almost resembles that of a spinosaurid theropod. Its orbits are located way down on the sides of its skull and were widely separated by the broad base of the snout, and its entire occipital region looks narrower, and smaller, than expected in an animal of this size. The glenoid fossa is flattened compared to that of ‘proper’ mesonychians, and the associated pre- and post-glenoid structures on the zygomatic arch are small. The sagittal crest is small as well. These features all suggest that the jaws were relatively weak. And while the upper canines were said by Osborn (1924) to be enormous, they aren’t: ‘The canines are very reduced in size and in proportion to the whole dentition and to the whole skull’ (Szalay & Gould 1966, p. 154). Clearly, Andrewsarchus is just crying out for some neat functional study on cranial kinematics and function. Come on: surely someone, by now, must have thought of doing FEA or something on its skull?"

What does this suggest? Well, a lot actually. It may suggest Andrewsarchus was a fish eater, or maybe a scavenger that ate small prey, or even just a generalist. We can't be sure. We can be sure though, that Andrewsarchus was living in a environment with lots of large prey and lots of other predators. It could be possible that it was using its jaws completely differently than any other carnivore/omnivore.

So there you have it. Andrewsarchus, the hippo-whale-thing with a giant head and a body possibly bigger than any other cenozoic carnivorous synapsid. I hope you like my interpretation of this beast. Andrewsarchus will be featured in the second episode of my Walking With Beasts remake, where it will be portrayed next to giant mesonychids, brontotheres, indricotheres, and more.

NOTE: I do not own the references I use to make these drawings. The entelodont part of my Andrewsarchus is possible by the Daeodon skeletal by , while the anthracothere part is by designeranimals designeranimals.wikispaces.com…
and this
savepic.ru/9014094.htm
(I cannot find who made this, so please inform me who made this)

EDIT: Removed human. It was messing with the size.
Related content
Comments: 39

Deform2018 [2018-07-08 22:41:21 +0000 UTC]

Could it have the diet of a Hippopotamus? A mostly herbivorous and occasional scavenger?

👍: 0 ⏩: 2

acepredator In reply to Deform2018 [2018-09-09 00:28:08 +0000 UTC]

Take a look at it’s teeth. There is nothing that indicates specialized herbivory.

👍: 1 ⏩: 0

105697 In reply to Deform2018 [2018-07-09 17:50:41 +0000 UTC]

The teeth suggest it was probably eating meat some of the time, probably an omnivore like entelodonts. I have doubts it was mostly herbivorous like a hippo.

👍: 2 ⏩: 0

Dinopithecus [2017-04-22 16:54:43 +0000 UTC]

In response to the supposedly weak bite of Andrewsarchus.

A while back, a DeviantArt member (theropod1) made the following comparison between the skulls of Andrewsarchus, Spinosaurus, and Tyrannosaurus.

lh3.googleusercontent.com/lxxh…

If you scale the skulls of Andrewsarchus and Tyrannosaurus to the same length, the posterior ends are comparably wide, as are the rostra. The only place where they're not as wide is at the pinch in Andrewsarchus' snout and at the point of the canines and third(?) incisors. This may have been a setback for powerful biting, but the pinch still isn't anywhere as marked as what we see in Spinosaurus. Comparison between this beast and spinosaurids isn't apt.

Also, you want to know what other cetancodontamorph seems to have a pinch in its snout (and one that seems to be even more developed than in Andrewsarchus)? The hippopotamus.

animaldiversity.org/collection…

But no one thinks hippos are relatively weak biters.

Lastly, the relatively small size of the sagittal crest might only suggest that the muscle anchored onto it (the temporalis) had a reduced role in contributing to Andrewsarchus' jaw power compared to other muscles. And considering how the zygomatic arches are enormously wide, the masseter could have taken on an even greater role in jaw adduction in Andrewsarchus.

So as you can see, I don't agree with the idea that Andrewsarchus was a relatively weak biter and potentially restricted to piscivory, scavenging, or small game hunting.

👍: 3 ⏩: 2

CosmicPosthumanz In reply to Dinopithecus [2020-10-29 13:28:43 +0000 UTC]

👍: 1 ⏩: 1

Dinopithecus In reply to CosmicPosthumanz [2020-10-30 18:29:47 +0000 UTC]

👍: 1 ⏩: 0

acepredator In reply to Dinopithecus [2017-08-01 15:21:19 +0000 UTC]

Not to mention crocodilians have a tooth rosette....

👍: 1 ⏩: 1

Dinopithecus In reply to acepredator [2017-08-02 00:54:56 +0000 UTC]

Yeah, forget what I said about snout pinches being a setback to powerful biting. They clearly are not.

👍: 1 ⏩: 0

ThalassoAtrox [2017-03-21 19:55:11 +0000 UTC]

If I can add my 2 cents, I`m having a hard time bealiving that Andrewsarchus could have been a fish hunter, compared to ancient whales like Ambulocetus, its teeth just don't look like they were designed for that purpose, and look to me more like those of a generalist which ate what ever it could get.

Also your mass estimates of 980-1200 kg seem exaggerated to me for the animal depicted in your drawing, maybe 600-800 kg would be more realistic?  

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

105697 In reply to ThalassoAtrox [2017-03-21 21:47:15 +0000 UTC]

Yeah, seeing as how its teeth looked like, it was probably a generalist. Its environment was also pretty dry IIRC, no place for a fish eater.

As for the mass estimates, they are based off anthracotheres and entelodonts. Based off of Archaeotherium, we got 980 kg, while based off anthracotheres like Anthracotherium and Brachyodus, which gave mass estimates of 1150 kg and 1200 kg. I think the person in the drawing may be messing with the size, since I'm not all that good with drawing humans as a size comparison, so I may remove it.

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

ThalassoAtrox In reply to 105697 [2017-03-22 01:12:27 +0000 UTC]

" Based off of *Archaeotherium*, we got 980 kg"

If an entelodonts-like Andrewsarchus would be that heavy, then how heavy would a Daeodon be, 1250 kg? After all it's skull it`s skull was nearly 10 cm longer? 

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

105697 In reply to ThalassoAtrox [2017-03-22 02:00:41 +0000 UTC]

Daeodon, according to Blazze, is about 900-1000 kg for the largest specimens.

Archaeotherium was used since its skull is more like that of Andrewsarchus in which its longer and thinner than that of entelodonts like Daeodon. Again, wouldn't take it with a huge amount of reliability, since all we have is the skull, and people have gotten different sizes based on entelodonts, albiet with different species.

Another thing I would like to mention: When we were scaling from anthracotheres, the skull of Andrewsarchus perfectly fitted with them, especially Brachyodus, an anthracothere a skull that looks a lot like that of Andrewsarchus.

savepic.ru/9014094.htm

👍: 0 ⏩: 2

bLAZZE92 In reply to 105697 [2017-10-03 17:17:12 +0000 UTC]

When I mentioned 900-100kg for the largest specimens, I did provide the caveat that such estimate is based on head-body lengths of bison, which, by virtue of their proportionally smaller head, should weight more than an enteleodont of the same length. 

More recently I have produced a GDI of a entelodont-based Andrewsarchus and it came out at 660kg.

👍: 1 ⏩: 1

105697 In reply to bLAZZE92 [2017-10-03 22:53:11 +0000 UTC]

Ah I see.

👍: 0 ⏩: 0

ThalassoAtrox In reply to 105697 [2017-03-22 02:31:51 +0000 UTC]

It does look very similar , intresting, I think I`ll draw a second version of Andrewsarchus as an anthracothere-like creature, both it and the entelodonts-esque version seem very plausible to me. Can't say the same for the aquatic Ambulocetus-esque one thought.  `

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

105697 In reply to ThalassoAtrox [2017-03-22 02:40:34 +0000 UTC]

Yes, anthracotheres and entelodonts are after all Andrewsarchus' closest relatives.

👍: 0 ⏩: 0

Dontknowwhattodraw94 [2017-03-20 19:23:55 +0000 UTC]

Interesting take on it. We really need more material!

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

105697 In reply to Dontknowwhattodraw94 [2017-03-20 22:56:24 +0000 UTC]

yes we do.

👍: 0 ⏩: 0

aGentlemanScientist [2017-03-20 11:27:58 +0000 UTC]

Very unique depiction

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

105697 In reply to aGentlemanScientist [2017-03-20 14:21:33 +0000 UTC]

Thank you.

👍: 0 ⏩: 0

PCAwesomeness [2017-03-19 22:28:01 +0000 UTC]

BTW, you got Blazze's name wrong.

blazze92

👍: 0 ⏩: 0

PCAwesomeness [2017-03-19 22:27:08 +0000 UTC]

Awesome!

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

105697 In reply to PCAwesomeness [2017-03-19 22:27:36 +0000 UTC]

Thanks.

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

PCAwesomeness In reply to 105697 [2017-03-19 22:28:24 +0000 UTC]

You're welcome.

Don't we all wish Andrew was a bit more complete?

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

105697 In reply to PCAwesomeness [2017-03-19 22:29:23 +0000 UTC]

yes.

👍: 0 ⏩: 0

JonaGold2000 [2017-03-19 22:25:10 +0000 UTC]

What a cuck

👍: 0 ⏩: 2

Philoceratops In reply to JonaGold2000 [2017-03-19 22:50:47 +0000 UTC]

It would probably try to kill you for saying that.

👍: 1 ⏩: 1

JonaGold2000 In reply to Philoceratops [2017-03-20 15:27:24 +0000 UTC]

But it is dead and cannot speak human languages

👍: 0 ⏩: 0

105697 In reply to JonaGold2000 [2017-03-19 22:27:52 +0000 UTC]

say that to its face if it were still alive.

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

JonaGold2000 In reply to 105697 [2017-03-19 22:33:14 +0000 UTC]

It died because it was a cuck

👍: 0 ⏩: 0

acepredator [2017-03-19 22:22:06 +0000 UTC]

We can't actually have Andrewsarchus be a scavenger....we know why.

Did it even need bite force to kill large prey (whether they be fish or large mammals)? If Smilodon taught us anything, it's that mammals don't need bite force to be a beast slayer.

IMO I see this as a mammalian spinosaur that was eating sharks, crocodiles and early archeocetes.

The strangest suggestion I've seen is that it was a specialist, anteater-like predator of fossorial rodents!

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

105697 In reply to acepredator [2017-03-19 22:27:08 +0000 UTC]

It was hunting down brontotheres and indrictotheres if thats the case.

Smilodon is a bad comparison since it has giant saber teeth and hunts in packs.

Also, I now kinda doubt the fish eater hypothesis now since it lived on open, dry plains, kinda like the African Savanna where there were very few fish.

That suggestion I heard, but it seems unlikely since you need to eat a lot of underground living mammals to sustain a creature as big, if not bigger than a bear.

👍: 0 ⏩: 2

acepredator In reply to 105697 [2017-03-19 22:37:25 +0000 UTC]

Also do we have any small ungulates from the locale?

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

105697 In reply to acepredator [2017-03-19 22:46:10 +0000 UTC]

There are some medium sized ones like pantodonts.

Those may have been the preffered prey.

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

acepredator In reply to 105697 [2017-03-20 00:19:56 +0000 UTC]

Seems like it

👍: 0 ⏩: 0

acepredator In reply to 105697 [2017-03-19 22:36:07 +0000 UTC]

So a large predator? But with jaws like that how was it hunting?

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

105697 In reply to acepredator [2017-03-19 22:47:19 +0000 UTC]

Maybe it suffocated its prey, clamping down with just enough force to cut off breathing, or maybe it attacked the hindquarters, ripping into the behind since the skin there is thinner than the skin on the flanks and legs, but for now, nothing is for sure.

👍: 0 ⏩: 0

AnonymousLlama428 [2017-03-19 22:19:10 +0000 UTC]

Your first line made me think of this (now obsolete) paleomeme:
www.deviantart.com/art/Scumbag…

Any way, nice! I dunno if the spots are quite with me, and I expected some sort of dorsal mane, but it seems like a good break from the literal wolf/civet in sheep's clothing.

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

105697 In reply to AnonymousLlama428 [2017-03-19 22:21:19 +0000 UTC]

thanks.

👍: 0 ⏩: 0