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eclecte In reply to Kudlacz [2006-04-06 10:54:26 +0000 UTC]

dzieki dzieki
no troche jest tych drucikow i kabelkow do ogladania

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Kudlacz In reply to eclecte [2006-04-06 11:04:59 +0000 UTC]

ciekawe w jakiej kolejnosci to zakladali wszystko

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eclecte In reply to Kudlacz [2006-04-06 14:27:38 +0000 UTC]

moze zgodnie z regula lewej reki hehe

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Kudlacz In reply to eclecte [2006-04-06 17:52:10 +0000 UTC]

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eclecte In reply to aStormcrow [2006-04-06 10:53:20 +0000 UTC]

krass but true and i like it

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eclecte In reply to apflee [2006-04-06 10:50:37 +0000 UTC]

thank u Oli

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eclecte In reply to piggety-pig [2006-04-06 10:49:14 +0000 UTC]

glad u like it

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eclecte In reply to danielzklein [2006-04-01 14:07:13 +0000 UTC]

hmm tja...........................but it was taken in Bremen!
anyway don't worry i like such indastrial climates

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danielzklein In reply to eclecte [2006-04-01 14:32:01 +0000 UTC]

See how far your polish dystopia has spread? Must be all the Putzfrauen brought it with them!

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eclecte In reply to danielzklein [2006-04-01 15:13:43 +0000 UTC]

any cliches? and as far as Putzfrauen are concerned in our dormitory we've got a german one, so maybe that's the reason why we've got a jungle instead of the kitchen and the Hausmeister that can nothing repair and at most writes a message "broken"
anyway i always try not to generalize and wish you the same

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danielzklein In reply to eclecte [2006-04-01 16:28:31 +0000 UTC]

Hahaha! I lub you Polish people No really, I do! You still have some sort of patriotism/national pride/whatever. I like that I knew I'd be able to bring about a reaction like this with this cliché (my girlfriend, *chrzaszczwtrzcinie , was once in a train from Braunschweig to Saarbrücken, on the way to see me, and when a little boy heard that she was Polish, he loudly commented that he knew a Polish lady too: their Putzfrau!)

But really... I don't think anyone could seriously insult me through my nationality... I find it fascinating that this is different for different people.

And broken is better than nothing, no?

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eclecte In reply to danielzklein [2006-04-12 11:33:40 +0000 UTC]

i wouldn't say that we've got particulary strong national pride, just in opposite - for some time i've seen some results of an inquiry "if people are proud to come from their country" and Poland was quite at the bottom, just some positions higher than the last East Germany... and in our discusion i was only refuting your statements, maybe a bit impulsively but being in Germany, unfortunately i'm quite often confronted with such clichés about Poles and it piss me off...
you claim you do not have any national feelings but i'm almost sure that being for example in Holand or France you would have to fight against their chlichés about your country and in this way someone could state that you German have some sort of patriotism or national pride...
besides i also find it fascinating that we all are different, but the differences result more from the personality not the nationality...
one World one People!
greetings

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danielzklein In reply to eclecte [2006-04-12 17:25:54 +0000 UTC]

You know, I might get a little wordy now, because this is actually one of my favourite topics to think/talk about

I'm very much interested in the way nations are working in modern Europe. Things are changing very quickly, but there are still some very clear characteristics typical for certain countries. It is of course a silly oversimplification to say that "all Finnish people are quiet and straightforward" or that "all German people are interested in efficiency and a good reputation" and so on, but there are little seeds of truth in those statements.

Recently I've been following a political American blog (www.nielsenhayden.com/makinglight); they discuss a lot of things, and one of the things they discussed was "Patriotism". "Do you feel proud to be an American", for instance. Now America is very clearly separated into two political camps: there are the conservatives, who believe that America should rule the world with brutal force and that Christian values should regulate our lives, and the liberals, who believe in the opposite ideas: that America shouldn't get involved in other countries' issues, that war is never a viable answer, that everyone should find their own ways to be happy, and so on. What fascinated me, though, was to realize that liberals are every bit as patriotic as conservatives. One would expect that conservatives are the only ones to fly US flags and say "I'm proud to be American", but that isn't the case at all. Liberals may not be quite as (stupidly) vocal about it, but they tend to feel similarily patriotic.

So I got to thinking: do I know a single German who'd say, with a straight face, "I'm proud to be German"? I don't. Matter of fact, I remembered the following story: I went to high school in a school that had a boarding school attached to it; you know, one of those things were students arrive on Monday and live in a building right next to the school until Friday, when they go home for the weekend. One of the students was evicted from that boarding school for writing quite simply "I'm proud to be German" on his mirror in his own room. That statement is so clearly fascist here that you would not dare say it out loud. I believe this is very different in Poland.

But beyond pure words: I don't really care much for my fellow Germans. I have a strange sort of pride when it comes to the DISTANT German past (pretty much everything before 1900), because some truly awesome people lived in Germany. Today, of course, there are some very clever people here too, but I cannot get myself to say, "yay, look, this was invented by a GERMAN, thus it must rule!" I just don't work that way. When I meet Germans in another country, on vacation, you know what my first reaction is? Avoid them. Try not to let it show that I'm German too. On the internet? Very similar. When I meet Germans on English-speaking web pages, most of the time I feel, if anything, ashamed. Germans tend to be loud, rude, and not very well-spoken. Again, I'm oversimplifying, but you get the idea.

When Martyna was in Ireland, I know she was HAPPY to meet other Poles. She told me a story of randomly meeting someone, figuring out they were Polish too, and talking to them for some time. And that is even though Dublin is literally OVERRUN by Poles. This wouldn't happen with German people. This is the kind of national pride I'm talking about. The idea that suggests in your mind "people from my country are smarter, more educated, more good-looking, more talented..." before you even think about what you're thinking. A sort of reflex. Now I've only had mild exposure to Polish people, and it's impossible to judge a country by the people you know (maybe I just happen to know only unpatriotic Germans and that is why my idea of German Patriotism is all wrong? You can never know enough people as ONE PERSON to judge a whole country), but from what I've seen... yeah, definitely, the idea that "we're Poles, we rule!" (again, I exaggerate) can be found MUCH more among Polish people than the idea "we're Germans, we rule!" can be found amongst Germans.

If I was in France or Holland and people brought up clichés about my country, it is most likely that I'd agree with them or even add points. True, I'm a particularly unpatriotic German, but it wouldn't be much different. When that question of patriotism first came up in that American blog, I sent mails to my best friends here in Germany asking them how they felt about being patriots. The answer was the same from all of them: I don't feel the least bit patriotic.

And of course I agree with you--it is wonderful that we are so different! One of the strangest things that gives me pleasure is to travel to another country, surround myself with people from that country, and try to get a feeling for how they THINK. The country I've visited most often in my life is of course Poland (not counting the Netherlands, which is really just hopping across the border, and people aren't that different there); on top of that, I've been to Turkey three times, to Brasil two times, to North America twice (once USA--New England and once Canada--Quebec, New Brunswick), to Italy two times, and once to Greece--and the people in each country are really, really different. I could even pick up differences between the New England Americans and the Maritime Canadians--differences that might be hard to put into words, but still, clear, strong differences. I find it ironic how similar Greeks and Turks are, btw, considering the long, long tradition of hatred between the two countries. From an outsider's point of view, they're really quite similar. Poles are also, in a way, louder Finns with more of an idea of pride and honour (not that Finns don't have that sort of idea, but they generally don't care as much Insulting a Pole is a very bad idea, I've found; on top of national pride, they tend to have a very strong personal pride that I simply find fascinating because I don't have it. If you insult me, I'll be angry for a moment, maybe, but chances are in a week or two I will have forgotten).

Right! Talking too much You can tell I'm a writer, can't you? This is one of my favourite topics in the world, and I'd love to find a story where I could explore this topic further. We'll see

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eclecte In reply to danielzklein [2006-04-13 16:55:08 +0000 UTC]

I also find the thema very intresting so i’ll take an attitude towards your statements, specially that in some points i wouldn’t agree with you or i just wanted to mention some other poits, you didn’t take into consideration...

Sure that you can find some basic characteristics typical for certain countries, which result from the particular culture, history, religion, political, education system, climate aso. Yes it is a very big oversimplification, cause everyone has different personality, what results in different perception. In this way even the same external conditions given for a one country will differently influence a person – f.ex. in extreme case a religious education can either make one became a priester or just make one become an atheist! It depends on person. So actually there is nothing special about, that i know a Finnish guy, that is everything else than quiet, Spanish people, that just in opposition to him, are very quite and not impulsive at all or just some chaotic German people as well

The subject „atriotism” is very broad, so being a patriot can mean for everyone sth completely different. You can even be a patriot even without realising it! So american patriotism is quite different than German or Polish one. The American patriotism seems to be the most noticeable and much book-like case.German people instead, what is not suprising due to their traumatic 20th century history, do not fly German flags arround, do not say loud that "they proud to be German", you can’t hear the German athem every 10 min as in USA (the 1st stanza is even not sung at all) But it doesn’t mean they’re not patriotic in a way. Namly, they’re proud of their cars, technical science, about some football achievements ( see the slogan: „wir sind wider wer” from the year 1954, when Germany becomes a world champion) about the German beer, that is done due to the only right "purity requirement”... Yes it’s a kidda hidden way of patriotism but anyway patriotism.

Polish patriotism against the German one doesn’t result from the economical achievements but if only than from our history. As i’ve already mentioned in previous comment, we’re not very proud to be Poles. That’s not surprising if you look on our resent situation – official unemployment about 18%, not very stable political situation (probably new parlament elections soon, populist parties gaining their popularity, corruption). So what to be proud of?! No wonder that so many people, aspecially young, are leavening Poland. To compasate it we’re proud not to surrender without striking during the 2nd World War (f.ex. in opposition to Chech people), we’re proud of having broken the comunist system, about the pope Jan Paulus the II. Anyway that’s not much to become a patriot for someone having problems with making ends meet. Yeah, people are quite pragmatic and care more for their current situation, how are they doing now than for a distant history. So in my opinion that’s one of the reasons, why we’re not very patriotic. Besides believe me, that writting somwhere „I’m proud to be Pole” would also bring some extreme right-wing associations as in Germany (i know sth about it cause i used to be a punk hehe).
You also gave me this example of your stay in Irland with your girl-friend Martyna to support your theory about our „national pride”. Believe me, i’m not very keen on such meetings and that’s already more than 5 years i’m living abroad not to mention all my travels so i had lots of such opportunities (am i a national paradox!? ) Anyway, in my oppinion that’s not the„national pride” at all that we talk to randomly met people from our country (at least probably more often than German people). The reson could be that we’re more a communal society (not like in Germany, that they don’t know their neighbours), we’re more open to each other, or maybe just don’t speek so much foreign laguages and are happy to meet someone, that finally speeks the same laguage... I would even say, that the believe that "people from my country are smarter, more educated, more talented..." is more true for German people – you know „you’re the old Europe and new European coutries should sit still aso”. I’ve also read that most German people wouldn’t like to have a foreign supervisior and a Polish one would be even very unwished (look the slogan „olnische Wirtschaft”.

I’m really proud of you that you were traveling a lot, that you could even pick up differences between the New England Americans and the Maritime Canadians It happens that i’ve been also traveling much from the States through the almost whole Europe, Caucasus, Russia to the far Kirgistan So it’s not like i’m speaking just theoretically, specially about Germany, where i’ve been staying for the last 5 years. You’ve also mentioned, you were traveling much to Poland so i come to conclusion from the begining , that what we see depends much on ourselves, on our perception. Anyway i found it very intresting to get to know how are we – the Poles seen from the outside. I’m also happy, about your statement that ONE PERSON is not enough to judge a whole country (would add that even 100 are to few ) Would wish you to keep on it, cause things are just not so black and white as you slightly tend to claim. That’s not an accident that one my favourite personal quotes is: the rule is that there are not rules

now i was talking to much, hope you got my idea, cause my English is not the best

take care my friend
eclecte

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eclecte In reply to Maurycywaw [2006-04-01 14:08:39 +0000 UTC]

a zdjecie do dupy czy jak? :>

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Maurycywaw In reply to eclecte [2006-04-01 14:21:50 +0000 UTC]

no powiedzmy ze opis to 75% calosci

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eclecte In reply to Maurycywaw [2006-04-01 15:30:40 +0000 UTC]

hm ciekawe podejscie. to jak dla Ciebie moglbym wyrzucic zdjecie, dopisac jedno zdanie i bedziesz happy
ja uwazam, ze zdjecie samo w sobie sie juz broni. no ale wiadomo kwestia gustu

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eclecte In reply to biala-brew [2006-04-01 14:17:43 +0000 UTC]

hehe dobre a moze to wlasnie jest tarcza antydesantowa a w podziemiach jakie v4
ale czy poraz 3 bym im sie jeszcze chcialo?!

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